Weird TnT Dynamics

[WarpGirl]

They were both motivated by love, pure unselfish love that is rare in our days. And I'd say even T'Les was motivated by love. She wanted the best for her daughter, she knew noting about Trip. T'Pol says that she never mentioned him, not once. How was T'les to know he would be best for her baby? So I concur.

I just wish some of the boys would forget they hate angst for two minutes and play Devil's Advocate. IT'S FUN!

[honeybee]

It made no plot sense what so ever but to pull Trip and T'Pol apart.

I think its a shame that they didn't put them together, and then explore the reactions of both Vulcans and Humans. The episodes that merely touch on this (Home, Demons, Terra Prime) are really interesting. So, I agree with you here. But I also think Trip giving T'Pol up was noble.

Although, Home would have been fascinating had TnT shown up as "official" mates. I would have been very interested to see T'Les and other Vulcans reactions.

[WarpGirl]

Most likely Trip would be challenged by Koss then one of two things might happen... A. Trip barely escapes being human mince-meat by tricking Koss or some other miracle. B. Trip escapes being made human mince-meat by T'Pol kicking Koss' A**!

[Asso]

Dear God in heaven thank you Escriba! Finally a rational arguement.

Ahem... no offence for Escriba, and not even for you, WarpGirl, but even if you have such strong opinions, that doesn't mean that they have to be fair, and the fact that you called "rational" the Escriba's opinion (and because of this: fair, evidently)... well... honestly it sounds a little offensive for me: am I not "rational" if I have different ideas and perceptions?

[WarpGirl]

When an arguement is basically "I hate ----" then by definition it is not rational. In anycase I wasn't referring to you specifically. And yes I admit I have said "I hate----" but I also ADMIT my arguement isn't rational.

[honeybee]

Actually, I would have preferred Koss not to factor into Home at all if TnT had shown up mated. T'Les could have referenced him, but if he was there I would assume that T'Pol would be considered damaged goods and he would have rejected her.

If I were writing a version of Home (idea slowly forming) where they were mated - it would be about Trip realizing just how much T'Pol had given up to be with him, but also realizing that she was always at odds with the more conservative elements in Vulcan society, despite what he thought of her in the first season.

[Asso]

When an arguement is basically "I hate ----" then by definition it is not rational. In anycase I wasn't referring to you specifically. And yes I admit I have said "I hate----" but I also ADMIT my arguement isn't rational.

Any discussion is futile.

[WarpGirl]

Now that idea facinates me. I have to admit I thought Koss was a fairly decent guy. Although compared to V'Las and Tolaris any man would be a prince!

[Silverbullet]

But what about T-Pol? She did give Trip that Kiss. What was she thinking? did she think that she was making a Sacrifice for her Mother? Did she realize how big a sacrifice she was making? why was she making it? T-Les had been out opf a job for some months so she was used to retirement. why should she prostitute her Daughter for a job hse no loger held or would hold. Get another Job she is an expert.

T-Pol POV is never really revealed in this Episode except on the fire Plains when she tells trip she is going ot marry Koss.

would Koss win a fight? He is an architect. Doubt if he would have much training with weapons. Heat, Gravity and thinner atmosphere would be trips main enemy and if he coud kill Hoss quickly that woud not matter.

[WarpGirl]

She was thinking... "my mother might be tried for treason, and I must protect her, and I love Trip so I will show him the way I can." Poor guy doesn't read signals well unless they're accompanied by a sledge hammer, or nudity it seems. Anyway it wasn't about the job. In TOS they explained Vulcan men learn how to use traditional weapons just in case their women call Kal'i'fee that is if they want to live.

[honeybee]

I think Vulcans in general place honor, family, tradition and logic above their own desires. In the beginning of the episode, T'Pol firmly resists the logic and tradition of the arranged marriage, but she couldn't overcome the idea that her actions at P'jem had destroyed her mother's career. I'm sure logic and tradition put pressure on her, but what clearly pushed her over the edge was the idea that her mother's career had been destroyed because of her actions. She felt she had an honor debt to repay.

She's clearly very, very unhappy after she makes her decision - in her Vulcan way. Her body language is tense at best and repulsed at worse, when she is near Koss. She only relaxes when she gives Trip that peck on the cheek.

And Trip gets that Vulcan's value honor. He knows that T'Pol be torn apart if her mother continued to suffer because of her actions and he wouldn't want to be responsible for that. Now, I think T'Les thinks that she's pushing her daughter in the right direction and only starts to change her mind toward the end. That makes me think that T'Les valued her daughter over her career - but she didn't tell her daughter that.

In the end, everyone is wrong. T'Pol is wrong that her mother's career is more important to her than her daughter's well-being. Koss is wrong that he will win over T'Pol. T'Les is wrong to have pushed her daughter into marriage. Trip, though noble, is wrong for not allowing T'Pol to make a fully informed choice. The marriage amounts to nothing, and T'Les winds up dead. Belatedly, everyone, even Koss, sees the truth.

[Asso]

I don't know. Sometimes I think that my conception of logic is different from that which the others have.

[honeybee]

While humans might see marrying a stranger as illogical, Vulcans clearly do not. And many would also argue that conforming to tradition and doing what one's family wishes is logical.

Once it is clear that T'Pol will never bond with him or even develop any affection for him, Koss sees the logic in letting her go.

But I do think that there's plenty of examples of Vulcans disagreeing on what is logical. Clearly, at the outset of the episode, T'Pol doesn't find it logical to marry Koss given her feelings for Trip. But I'll wager she tells herself marrying Koss is logical once she decides she must do it.

[WarpGirl]

Honeybee that was great. I don't think the issue is with logic though, I think people just have a hard time with the concept of self-sacrifice in these situations. In modern Western Civilization for the most part we are culturally trained to see an act such as this as something awful, and wrong. The thing that gets me is this cultural training is SO NEW! Not even two centuries old.

[Asso]

The logic isn't a way to justify whatever act.
I feel a little contrived the idea that, T'Pol being a Vulcan and Vulcans being logical (maybe), there's always a logical reason for whatever she does or thinks.
It is like we were reading a person from what we think this person could be.