AU or Not AU?

[WarpGirl]

OK for the record I was not referring to sex specifically, more like life. And of course sex is a part of life so it was apart of what I was referring too, but I didn't expect THAT, Alelou!

[Alelou]

I thought we were having a discussion about Honeybee's story and the question she'd raised specifically, and you were participating in it. Sorry if I freaked you out.

I think I've mentioned this to Aquarius before, but it would be nice to have a way to label mature discussions so those who don't want to get into it can steer clear. I didn't personally think this discussion got particularly explicit, but I'm sorry I offended you.

[honeybee]

For the record, Warpgirl - I got from context that you were talking about life in general and not bedroom stuff. So, there's no need to be embarrassed!

But I agree that it would be a good idea to label mature discussions, just as mature stories are tucked away in the decon chamber.

I do think that the MU especially, does lend itself to some quite mature fics. So this thread naturally lends itself to some adult themes.

[WarpGirl]

Whoa! Alelou I didn't say I was offended I just blush easy. I'm still innocent so I have these "What? That can't be," moments. Seriously, I'm a big girl and that wasn't offensive. I just missed Honeybee's post and I missed the point. That's my mistake not yours. I do worry about the minors on these boards sometimes, but since people can lie about their ages and nobody can control that, it's difficult.

[justTripn]

We do have a thirteen year old member. I didn't notice anything out of bounds but I haven't read this whole thread.

[Aquarius]

Speaking of AUs and what you can get away with - I wrote a little, light and non explicit scene into Family Secrets (not posted here yet) where T'Pol is playing at being a dominatrix but doesn't really get it - and Trip (who doesn't take the game seriously at all) tries to explain it to her and she still is just confused, even though she's good at it. Boy - my email box was full this morning - not so much with reviews - but with private messages - either very pro or very con. People seem to be very split.

Also, earlier in the story, there's a far more explicit scene (but still very light as these things go) where Trip is in the dominant role and it did not provoke a reaction at all.

Anyway, I always thought that T'Pol's first season catsuit/persona was more than a little dominatrix - much as 7 of 9 's was. So, in my head - I thought it would be funny if T'Pol completely misinterpreted why anyone would be turned on by a dominatrix.

Anyway, from the emails - my guess is some people like this - some people don't. Which is fine with me.

But in Blue'n Black's Payment and in Kevin's MU stories - there's very, very serious S&M undertones - both with T'Pol in the submissive position. And Kevin also has an AU story of his own devising with T'Pol in the dominant role. (It's called Princess T'Pol) I get that this isn't everyone's cup of tea - but people really seem to love Payment a whole lot, especially.

Meanwhile, Aquarius can play with these themes in her funny stories - and I don't think anyone minds.

So, my questions. Are people more willing to accept this stuff in the MU and AU than in the regular world? Are people more willing to see the female in the submissive role?

I'm more just curious as to what people think. I think this purely a matter of taste for most people.

I have an answer for this, and I'm sure it's going to provoke a lot of denial and controversy...maybe not as much as 10 or 20 years ago, but I'm sure it'll be there. So everyone, remember, I'm speaking kind of general and clinically here, and this is coming from someone who's taken a class on the psychology of sex and has read Doctor Ruth. (For whatever that may be worth to you.)

Observationally, BDSM (even the light stuff) is a slippery slope in some fandoms. For example, I think it's more likely to provoke an "ew" factor with characters like Han/Leia from Star Wars because you have a "pure" fairy tale kind of thing happening there (princess hooks up with the bad boy who has the heart of gold), vs. Buffy and Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer because there you have elements in the milieu that are goth-inspired, and a canonically-established "rough sex" relationship between the two characters. So my first thought on this matter is, "context is everything." And for this reason, I think AU and especially the MU for Trip and T'Pol would make such a concept "safer" to the reader who may be otherwise reluctant to face that there may be a "dark" (albeit playful and harmless) side to this pairing's love.

Second, I'm a little surprised that having Trip in the dominant role didn't raise an eyebrow, but having T'Pol in that role did, in this age of overly-PC-ness--like, people in general having issues with a woman being dominated and objectified. Of course, I don't know the ratio of men to women who made comments, but I would almost expect some degree of gender bias to play a part in the reaction of mainstream readers. The only thing I can think of here is something akin to the phenomenon that was happening quite a bit with the explicit Spock fic in the 70s and 80s, where you have a Vulcan character who is normally so in control...and a reader who "secretly" wants to see the human partner break that control and be the boss, "tame the beast" as it were, show the Vulcan partner that he or she isn't so tough after all.

Third, in some aspects, I see this becoming less of a "big deal" in general, depending on how graphic and how it's presented, because of gradual mainstream acceptance of some aspects of the fetish/BDSM world. You have "mainstream" stores for couples like Lover's Lane selling things like fuzzy handcuffs and the like, and even bridal magazines suggesting new couples dabble with "light bondage".

Hmmmm...I wonder if I'll have an opportunity to do a paper on a topic like this for one of my classes??? Fascinating stuff!!

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

I'll admit that I'm no expert on this, but I think that from a "previously established" point of view there would a reason for MU Trip to be the more dominant one. If MU TnT were to get together they'd have to overcome the fact that Trip was initially betrayed by T'Pol when she mind-melded/mind-altered him. So for him to even contemplate this he'd have to be the one "calling the shots" so to speak. He could only learn to trust her (for whatever trust is worth in the MU) if she was the more submissive part. Add to that the factor that the Vulcans are essentially a slave race to the Terran Empire and that they have for a very long time been subjected to domination by Humans. It wouldn't be all that difficult for MU T'Pol to fall back on a role she'd played for most of her life.

That said, I wouldn't mind being dominated by Mirror Polly! (Well, not in a chains and whips fashion) And maybe Mirror Trip could learn to appreciate it one day as well, but it would take a while.

[honeybee]

And for this reason, I think AU and especially the MU for Trip and T'Pol would make such a concept "safer" to the reader who may be otherwise reluctant to face that there may be a "dark" (albeit playful and harmless) side to this pairing's love.

Oh, absolutely. I think the MU almost exists as canon's version of smutty fanfic - where the dark sides of the characters come out to play. Somehow, the characters can do and say things that the RU characters wouldn't normally do - nothing light about it. And MU characters wouldn't bother with safe words or rules. It's pure fantasy.

I'm not an expert at the BDSM world by any means, but I have noticed that light references to it seem fine in conversations. I hear references to whips and chains and tying people up fairly regularly. It seems like a joke - cultural short hand for non-missionary sex.

But I also know that in that world imagery is everything. My understanding is that sex in secondary. I remember recognizing the Borg queen as a dominatrix in FC, though there was no sex involved. 7 of 9's catsuit and boots were less obvious, by virtue of the fact that they changed the color from black to silver, but that whole "Resistance is Futile" stuff was a dead giveaway. Originally, the Borg were not sexy at all - but someone transferred their imagery into something kinky. Again, sex was practically taken out of the equation. But the sexiness remained.

I actually never thought Vulcans worked in the dominant way either. It's the opposite - there's something submissive about suppressing ones desires - and dominating about someone who wants to see a Vulcan lose control. So, that' probably why people perceive dominatrix T'Pol as being OOC even with her boots and catsuit. I sort of agree, because I wrote her not really understanding the role - taking it as some kind of test of ability - rather than a desire for on the part of the sub person to lose control. She's so tightly wound, I don't think she'd consciously comprehend why anyone would want to lose control - as many times as she might be made to enjoy losing control herself.

On a side note, I was totally freaked by the S&M turn Spike and Buffy's relationship took. It made sense, that a young woman who had to remain in control all the time would want to give some of it up - but it still freaked me.

[Aquarius]

A note of clarification:

In the BDSM world, it's really the submissive who has all the power...because he or she has the power to say "stop." Submission is regarded as a rare and precious gift. So this could make for some interesting perspectives on the Vulcan psyche if this were to be kept in mind while writing such a thing.

Mostly, though (and I'm painting with a broad brush here, across multiple fandoms) I think such things mostly get written by people who are writing it for kink factor and not for character development/analysis.

[honeybee]

In the BDSM world, it's really the submissive who has all the power...because he or she has the power to say "stop." Submission is regarded as a rare and precious gift. So this could make for some interesting perspectives on the Vulcan psyche if this were to be kept in mind while writing such a thing.

If you apply that principle to T'Pol submitting and being willing to lose her Vulcan control to Trip (no equipment needed), it could definitely be perceived as a gift. She's from a culture where men use women to satisfy their primal needs. T'Pol submitting her control to someone who wants to give her pleasure and love in return is a very romantic notion.

And yes, and one of the main principles of BDSM is that the submissive has the power.

[Asso]

If you apply that principle to T'Pol submitting and being willing to lose her Vulcan control to Trip (no equipment needed), it could definitely be perceived as a gift. She's from a culture where men use women to satisfy their primal needs. T'Pol submitting her control to someone who wants to give her pleasure and love in return is a very romantic notion.

I agree with that, but I have a thought. I don't know, but is foreign to me the idea that, in love, there is someone dominant and someone submissive. There is room for any lover to be dominant or submissive in different moments, because love is change. That's one of its delightes.

[Aquarius]

Well, there's nothing that says that one has to be dominant or submissive all the time...but for some, it's just nice to let someone else drive. Also, there are those in the BDSM community who refer to themselves as "Switches," because they move back and forth between the roles depending on things like mood, partner, or other things. For some, even brief control can be alluring. Others can take or leave it. As with all things, individual mileage varies.

[honeybee]

This scene that inspired this whole conversation came about because I wrote two scenes where it seemed to me that Trip was dominating T"Pol - making her lose some of her Vulcan control. After doing that twice, I said to myself turnabout is fair play - and I might as well call it what it is. Thus, I wrote the scene in question and invoked some specific language - which in turn caused a strong reaction.

But I wanted to make it clear that one party in the relationship did not dominate the other all the time - that they both had their moments of control/submission. Because I think it's more healthy that way, myself.

[Aquarius]

I've got some time on my hands this week so I want to read the story that sparked this thought-provoking discussion.