"Missing scenes from Season Four" discussion

[Asso]

Mh ... I do not know if by chance I have already said this, but today is the day of the wedding of my daughter, so I decided to do something able to avoid any discussion.
Let me explain. I can share the impressions of Silverbullet about the demeanor of Trip in the last chapter of Alelou.
But at the same time, I can understand Alelou: after all, she makes sure that Trip behaves exactly like the angst of 'Home' requires him to do (although, to be honest, I'm not personally very in agreement with her when she says:

"I think there's more actual love in remaining friends with a woman who's just broken your heart like that than there is just saying you'll always love her.

And what do you expect? For him to love her forever despite this? He will, of course, but not by choice. I don't know many men who would choose to love forever in a situation like this. And if a man did, I'd be a little worried about whether he has any love or respect for HIMSELF. Healthy people accept rejection, and move on -- unless, of course, they are afflicted with a Vulcan mating bond."

Aleou clearly has her own idea of ​​male behaviour, and even of the respect that a male could have for himself after a certain behavour on his part. But she is a woman, so it's understandable, I think.

However, let's beside the discussion if you do not mind.
I think you may see something, here below, that can put people agree.

You see, after having told T'Pol that he will always be her friend, Trip has realized that he was signing his and her death sentence.
So he stared at T'Pol, and without that she could understand, he turned on his heel and went to Koss.

Trip gave ... ahem ... told Koss a few words, as a result of which - who knows why - Koss decided to go in turn to his parents and - once again, who knows why - theese ones have decided that it would be much better if the husband of T'Pol was Trip instead than Koss.

So there was a wedding at the end, but with a different groom. The logical groom, I think we should say.
The ceremony was celebrated at 'Fire Plains' (this too is logical, isn't it?).
Apparently T'Less were not present (is it possible that Silverbullet has bound and gagged her? )

Please observe the clothes that the bride and groom have on. A perfect Bond, do not you think? And a perfect 'Missing scene', I am persuaded.
Maybe not exactly in 'Canon', but certainly much more pleasant than the 'no-missing scenes' that we saw on the screen.

[panyasan]

Congrats on your daughter's wedding, Asso. Wishing you and your family a wonderful day. Will you post pictures of the wedding?

Your idea certainly has merit, but I think the Missing scenes are written to make more sense of canon while sticking to what we have seen on screen.

[Alelou]

Yes, congratulations on your daughter's wedding, Asso.

[Silverbullet]

Asso, hopefully we will see photos of a very proud father walking his lovely Daughter down the aisle to the man she will marry. I am sure you will look the part.

SB

[Silverbullet]

Double post. alelou, I am not sure what you mean when you say that a man who claims to love a woman forever may need help.

There are three (3) women I remember and will remember the rest of my life.

My first love, Katherine (Kitty) Gray; Maxine Bailey, black woman; and Rita Dorgan a Irish nurse. All in one way or the other live in me. Kitty was my first love and Rita my last before I met my wife. I don't believe I need help. If I forgot them I might.

A woman can stay in a man's heart no matter what. Even if she stomps on it. Men are strange that way.

At least I am

SB

[Alelou]

Of course some people remain in our hearts after our relationships with them end. Who ever really forgets their first love? That's the pathos of human existence. But unless you happen to be married to all three of them right now, you did move on. I would also suggest that calling up the old loves at this point to tell them you still love them would not be a healthy thing to do. (Especially if your wife heard you.)

This is perhaps more a response to Asso than to you, but if someone tells you she's sorry, but she's marrying someone else, and you refuse to accept that and instead go do whatever you have to in order to keep from losing her, I believe that counts as paternalism at best and stalking at worst.

Plenty of women get killed or maimed (acid in the face, for example), by men who refuse to take no for an answer or become enraged when they hear it. They don't really love their women -- they think it's love, but they actually consider those women important property or accessories to their own self-image, so much so that they feel they have the moral right to destroy them for walking away. The most disturbed and dangerous of these men don't stop there, but also kill their children, anyone else who happens to be around, and themselves.

Thankfully, while that instinct to control one's mate may be in all of us, wired into our primitive lizard brains, most of us are capable of rational thought and of a morality that extends beyond our own needs and wants. This applies to both men and women. Trip respects T'Pol as a person who can make her own decisions, and he also respects himself as someone who can cope with that and move on in his life, despite the pain. Bravo, Trip.

[Transwarp]

Well said, Alelou.

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, often things happen beyond one's control. Kitty was pushed by an ambitiousmother in to a marriage with the son of wealthy parents. She, like T'Pol was not strong enough. The last time I saw her was in 1958. she died of a tumor in her brain which apparently could not be operted on.

Maxine had a bit more sense. In 1964 every state in the Union bar wshington state and the District of Columbia had laws against mixed marriage. I tried to convince her that we would live in other countries. She said her parents did not want her to marry outside her race. Last I heard of her was in 1967 when she was working for the U.N. in New York. don't know what happened to her. Rita was my own stupidity. It was far too easy for me to get female companionship. I was, in a word, unfaithful. Rita had enough and dumped me. I deserved it.

NO stalking, no acid in the face. Rejection never bothered me. If I deserved it I accepted rejection.

SB

[Alelou]

Exactly, Silverbullet. You coped and you moved on. Even better, you managed to maintain an affectionate regard for these ladies who were part of your life for awhile, even the ones who followed someone else's bad advice. Good for you.

[justTripn]

I tried to post the last chapter of Alelou's "Home" and I'm having some troubles. I'm going to try again later.

So I guess I ready to weigh in on this story. I REALLY liked how Alelou explain every Trip and T'Pol mystery there is in the canon. Not only did she explain it, but once she put's the idea in your head, it's like "Of course! That's so obvious!" Why did Trip say he had nowhere to go in Home? Why wan't he visiting his family? Why did Koss's family blackmail T'Pol? What was T'Pol thinking in going along with it? Why was Trip at the wedding? Why didn't Trip try to talk her out of it? Whose side was T'Les on anyway? I think you may have even given us an explanation for the Trip's siblings problem (I forget what the problem was, but whatever it was, I'll bet it can be explained by half siblings from the father's first marriage.)

But solving these riddles is just secondary. What we really want is an emotionally compelling resolution even better than what we saw on screen. You definately achieved this with Harbinger and my all-time favorite missing scene: E2. What is very satisifying about this version of Home is that T'Pol falls apart by wandering out into the desert. We see how much she loves Trip, yet she is still behaving very stoicly like a Vulcan. YES! It is very satisfying to see Trip sitting on the floor at the edge of her bed and finally talking to her very directly. They are both communicating very directly: all cards out on the table, finally. I really enjoy that type of scene, the intimacy. I think the "I'll always be your friend line" was perfect. T'Pol is vainly hoping she can marry Koss AND carry on a side thing with Trip. Trip instantly decides that would be humiliating for him. The way you tell the story, we see that they are doomed, but each of them feels there is an easy solution: T'Pol wants to maintain the love affair with Trip after her marriage. Trip wants T'Pol to pick him over Koss. You have conveyed the tragedy and frustration.

More later. Someone needs a ride somewhere.

I really love the emotional complexity.

[panyasan]

I think T'Pol fooled herself by believing she wouldn't let go after Trip after she was married. As the loyal person that she is, I don't see herself having an affair. She just doesn't see this marriage to Koss as a real marriage. It's an ritual without any meaning. Trip makes it clear that it isn't that case and that rocks her world.

[Silverbullet]

T'Pol told Trip it was her choice. He has to believe that. So when she marries he respects the marriage vows. He would expect her respect his marriage vows or others to respect his and hers if they married. I have always seen Trip as a traditionalist. raised by his family to respect things like marriage vows. He turned down the Denobian woman because she was married to Phlox. Not sure if T'Pol knew that.

T'pol wants him to respect her tradition of doing her duty and leaving him to marry Koss for her mothers sake.She should not be surprised if he goes all the way on this by saying you are now a married woman.

T'Pol may believe it is a sham but I am not certtain she explained that to Trip in terms he could or would understand.

He migt think if it is a sham why go through with it.

There was no guarantee that daddy would follow throgh with his promise once the ceremony was over.

Never could understand the negoiations that T'Pol and the family went through. That should have told the family that T'Pol didn't want the marriage and was just going through themotions and was not going to be a good Vulcan wife.

IMHO

SB

[justTripn]

I should add that I find the situation of Trip's dad very compelling: both his own pain and how it is affecting his family. I am wondering what happened in Trip's Dad's first marriage. I am hoping for a resolution of that story line as well. Your stories are so multi-layered. The dangling threads keep me mulling it all over after I'm done reading. That's a sign of a good story.

[Silverbullet]

Jt, what on earth does Trip'sdad ave to do with anything.

T'Pol and Trip have a real problem. They are being torn apart and Trip cannot find a way to stop what is happening to his world.

Trip's dad would be entirely secondary to where the real tragedy is.

I have been wondering. Trip and T'Pol are mated and bonded (I beleive) in this story. In most FanFics that means they are married according to the Vulcns. If that is so any marrige by T'Pol to Koss would be illegal and invalid. why wouldn't Trip say something. Mama doesn't deserve his consideration since she is obviously in with Koss and family to blackmail T'Pol for her own base purposes. Trip should say we are already married, grab T'Pol and get the hell off Vulcan.

IMHO

SB

[Alelou]

Hey, if you're a reader who's feeling a little Trip-and-T'Pol'ed out and you find Trip's dad's story interesting enough to keep you engaged, hoorah. (SB clearly feels it's just getting in the way!)

Fanfics are not canon, and what "most fanfics" do does not constrain me here -- in this series, what actually happened on the show is the only thing that constrains me. Let's say that in this era Vulcans don't speak or study much about mating bonds except in an anecdotal sort of way. Suppose it's like melding, frowned upon as something funky and immeasurable and not entirely polite to discuss, since it's linked to mating. At any rate, that's what I'm assuming. Even if common Vulcan practice is based on the actual practical experience that a bond is the same as a marriage, that doesn't mean everyone 1) knows that marriages result in bonds or arise from bonds, or 2) would assume a bond that arises accidentally with some stray Human contravenes an actual legal marriage entered into in the traditional Vulcan way.

Not to mention, Trip doesn't know he has a Vulcan mating bond. He's having some weird symptoms, but he hasn't figured it out, and while T'Pol has her suspicions, she hasn't enlightened him.

Even if he did know, he wouldn't have any reason to assume it's permanent. Nor do we. Nor does T'Pol. We don't know how it will be for Trip. He's not Vulcan. We don't actually know until some green bimbos come along sashaying their asses right in front of him that he won't even be tempted to look. It's so extreme a non-reaction that it suggests T'Pol has him pretty well locked up, but who knows? I think it would be kind of interesting if they had to someday cope with a little marital fatigue like the rest of us old married farts do, but I'm not going there.