Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:40 pm

panyasan wrote:
In 2153, following the Xindi attack on Earth and the numerous firefights that the Enterprise NX-01 had been involved in since its launch in 2151, it was determined that Earth's vessels would begin to carry detachments of United Earth's elite military unit, the MACOs, thus taking a step towards the unification of Starfleet and the military – and of the roles of defense and exploration. (ENT: "The Expanse")


So if I read this correctly, SF is something half between an exploration organization, diplomatic organization and para-militairy organization and the threat of war (Xindi-conflict, Romulan war) made SF move from this to be a more militairy organization.
This kind of development wouldn't take place without discussion - hence the remark by Forrest and Erika "are we okay with become an organization with a strong militairy component."

In Earth's history most explorers were looking for land, took that land from others, made it a colony or their own country and were very interested in using the goods of the country they were exploring for their own wealth. Only to defend the exploreres place of their own: then we get an army. An army is the militairy arm of the goverment of a country, while explorers have ties with their home country and government, but are less controled by that goverment. That can change when a settlement of explorers is being attacked, as we see with Starfleet.

As for the fraternization rules - I think Transwarp said it best. Especially in the militairy or organizations were people work together and risk of being in danger (police), having a personal relationship with your co-worker is a bad idea. Let's put it this way: I work in an office and even there getting involved with your co-worker is a bad idea. And if you do, you sure have to work hard it doesn't effect your work.


What a nice post! But all I have to say is, it's a good thing we don't have to be realistic with that last paragraph with ST. Frat rules are such a pain! :lol:

It really is a shame that the writers didn't put the time and attention into their scripts that they deserved. I don't buy the "it's just the way TV writing is" bush, there are plenty of highly successful shows that do show care in their attention to details. The question of frat regs, and SF's status could have been clearly and articulately handled if somebody cared.

Some shows that DO care, Burn Notice much harder, and more expensive to produce. White Collar, the characters are always sticking to their arcs and no huge continuity errors. The West Wing probably the gold standard of writing for a show aired on a major network. And others.

Unfortuately all the Treks have been victims of carelessness at one point or another. But ENT was the most cruely treated.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Silverbullet » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:45 pm

Lewis and Clark were exploring the purchse. Land bought from France (who had no legal right to it) They had no iidea of its borders so they were tld to go to the Pacific ocean. Since the land was purchased it belonged to the U.s. government (also the natives but they didn't count s far as the government was concerned)

Erika saying she did not want a military officer on the Bridge she probably should have said I don't wnat a MAACO on the bridge. That officer would just be in the wway and be of no use to the bridge crew.

I have an idea the wirters were not ex military. They seemed ot believe that MAACO and Military wre interchangeable terms. they are not. The military takes in a number of different units, MAACO's Starfleet, and probably a few others. The MAACOs just that unit.

As has been pointed out. Forraest ws an Admiral, that is a military rank so he is in the military which in this case is Starfleet. Starfleet is military so is Enterprise. You don't have pseudo military unless it is some sort of self appointed "Miitia" which we are blessed with.

The minute men were a militia, civilians who were prepared to take on an organized Military unit. Later when the Revolutionary war began a real military was created.

Entrprise was not a militia it was a military organization in every respect. What is so hard to accept about that. Why is there opposition to saying that Starfleet and the Enterprise was military?

Military makes better explorers. The orders are carried out quickly and completely, military discipline keeps good order. A Civilian could say I quit and walk off to go home. Not so in a military. that is desertion and in some cases punishiable by death. Leaders are not questioned or orders are not questioned as in a civilian group. Enterpriese would be far more successful if it were military explorers.

lastly why were they armed? if they were just peaceful civilian explorers? They were not going to plant the flag and claim a planet for Earth and back that claim up with guns.

Enterprise was military.

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Asso » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:59 pm

You know, I have a romantic (and fanciful) heart.
I think I have already express this idea elsewhere long time ago: when Enterprise started its journey, Earth was coming out from a dark time. Most likely - rather, I think surely - there was no difference between civilian and military in that society. By necessity.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:05 pm

Okay what the HECK! France had no legal right to there own territory in the US?????????? SB I don't know what kind of history they taught when you were in grade school but it wasn't what I learned.

Asso earth was not coming out of a "dark time" as you say. It had been on a great path since Zefram Cochrane took the first warp flight. That flight and the First Contact was the catalyst that brought earth out of its second "dark ages" after WW3 and the eugenics wars.

Why is everyone forgetting canon? :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Asso » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:14 pm

WarpGirl wrote:Asso earth was not coming out of a "dark time" as you say. It had been on a great path since Zefram Cochrane took the first warp flight. That flight and the First Contact was the catalyst that brought earth out of its second "dark ages" after WW3 and the eugenics wars.

Why is everyone forgetting canon? :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

Maybe, and maybe not. And, in any case, I love this idea. What do you think? Could I take it as my personal Canon? ;-)
On the other hand, who are the others to have a Canon better than mine? :angel:
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby marchale » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:39 pm

Well, for my opinion - I don't know if Starfleet at the time was actually considered military or just a shade of grey sort of quasi-military thing. I'm mainly confused by the use of the MAACO onboard the Enterprise regarding that matter. I mean, if Starfleet itself was fully military, why bring in the MAACO instead of using that amount more of Starfleet security or ordnance people to work under Malcolm instead? And given the feelings of humans towards the Vulcans at the time, I don't know how Starflleet could've explained the idea of T'Pol outranking Trip when she wasn't in Starfleet at the time (like in Broken Bow). If anything I think it was probably an un-official, diplomatic gesture done to try to appease the Vulcan High Command, but I don't think Starfleet took it very seriously.

Ahh, you mentioned the Merchant Marines being somewhat military, SB. Yeah, it was "sort of" military. My dad was in the Merchant Marines prior to the American involvement in WW2, but he left the Merchant Marines after Pearl Harbor was attacked to join the Army Air Corps (as whats now known as the U.S. Air Force was called at the time) because he wanted to fight in the war and couldn't do that in the Merchant Marines. I don't know if folks realize this or not, but the Merchant Marines were unarmed, which made them helpless sitting ducks in the water for the Nazis because the U.S. government wouldn't retaliate (or at least not prior to Pearl Harbor anyway) and I know that because my dad was among the 8 survivors torpedoed off his ship by the Nazis and the U.S. government didn't do a damn thing about it. They actually made a Humphrey Bogart movie about the plight of the poor Merchant Marines being attacked by the Nazis in the early days of WW2 (before the U.S. became involved in the war), it's called "Action In The North Atlantic". But the government did count his time spent in the Merchant Marines as well as in the Army Air Corps as counting towards being considered "of military service" when they gave my mom her Veteran's Widows Pension after my dad died in 1985. (But it still makes me mad as hell that we didn't get involved in WW2 till Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese).

As far as fraternization goes, yeah - I think it's pretty silly having rules against it - because people are going to do it anyway and it just makes it complicated when you have to sneak around. On that I know, I had three broken engagements to my supervisor at the time and while that didn't have anything to do with why I kept calling off the wedding, having our big boss (who was also Rick's boss too) go ballistic about it (he even assigned me to a new supervisor who was only a supervisor over me alone), well - that just added to the problems we had trying to deal with our relationship. Anyway, while it might be considered "wrong" or "unethical" to sleep with your boss, falling in love with someone who "outranks" you isn't something you choose to do. Actually I tried like hell to convince myself I shouldn't be thinking such thoughts about my boss, etc in the beginning - but it didn't work; it just made it very uncomfortable when our big boss threw such a hissy fit when he found out about it.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby marchale » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:39 pm

Silverbullet wrote:
Entrprise was not a militia it was a military organization in every respect. What is so hard to accept about that. Why is there opposition to saying that Starfleet and the Enterprise was military?

SB


Okay, where I was confused (and no doubt wrong) about the military was in thinking the MAACO were just the only military people onboard the Enterprise and that Starfleet (despite having ranks) was just kind of quasi-military like some NASA astronauts have a Colonel's rank or higher, or like NCIS works for the Navy, but I wouldn't think of say Abby & McGee on the TV show NCIS as being Navy personnel even though they work for the Navy like astronaunts work for NASA. I guess I was just unclear about Starfleet; but I think what might've confused me about Starfleet's military status was in having T'Pol suppossedly outrank Trip when she wasn't in Starfleet, so since that made no sense to me - I guess I was looking at Starfleet as being like a future NASA or like a branch of the (then world) government (like NCIS) where its connected with or somewhat involves the military without being a part of it, my mistake there, I'm sorry; but somehow I don't look at NASA or NCIS as being very military either. (And as far as their use of weapons, well - maybe thats just to defend themselves so they aren't as defenseless as the Merchant Marines were when the Nazis attacked them). Anyway, I apologize for my misunderstanding that Starfleet was just the 22nd century's version of NASA on a global scale there.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:44 pm

Okay I wouldn't take SB's word as law on this.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Silverbullet » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:00 am

WG, that land the French STOLE from the natives. The natives lived on the land and had for centuries.

The European nations divided North america up among themselves. They subjugated the natives and killed them with guns and diseases. In the process they stole everything that wasn't nailed down.

How would the Europeans react if a boatload of Natives from North America were to land and jamb a flag in the ground and proclaim I claim this land in the name of PPowawatan the first. The Europeans would be bent all out of shape. but that is what they did to the natives on north America.


so France had no legal right to the land except the right of conquest. When the Europeans first hit North America there were millions of natives but in a few hundred years that ws down by several million.

France was selling what essential belonged to the natives.

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Cogito » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:17 am

Silverbullet wrote:France was selling what essential belonged to the natives.


You could argue that nobody has the right to 'own' land - after all, there's always some person or thing who could claim to have been there first. But what's really being sold is the permission to use it. If you buy the land from France, presumably the French aren't going to object to you using it. Other people might object, but not the French.

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Rigil Kent » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:26 am

Trying to apply logic and consistency to anything Star Trek is always a failing proposition.

As to whether SF was a military or not, well, they might claim they aren't, but by pretty much all modern measures, they fit the bill. Officially mandated government organization? Check. Regimented rank structure? Check. Armed and ultimately tasked with human defense? Check. So I'd argue that they are the military, merely evolved in a slightly different direction than from what most of us would consider military. Ironically, they're probably closer to the wet navy of 1700 and 1800s who were tasked with exploration as well as normal duties. As to why they might insist they aren't the military, one needs only look at the immense destruction and death caused by the Eugenics Wars/WW3 (I consider the two to be one and the same) and it doesn't take a monumental leap of logic to presume that the term "military" might have negative connotations that Starfleet is looking to avoid. Still, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... by Star Trek definitions, it is evidently an elephant. Or perhaps a monkey.

@ Marchale: You said "As far as fraternization goes, yeah - I think it's pretty silly having rules against it"

I have to respectfully disagree. Consider this example. You and I are serving in the same department. We're both the same rank, but I'm sleeping with our boss because she's a smoking hot Vulcan babe. Shore leave comes up and you get an undesirable, crappy rotation that won't let you do anything cool, whereas I get the prime spot that just happens to coincide with our boss' leave. It doesn't matter that the schedule for these leaves were randomly generated - you're going to suspect a rat.

Scenario 2: We're in a deadly combat situation. You and I are still the same rank, and I'm still sleeping with our boss. Suddenly, there's a situation that requires one of us to be given an assignment with limited chance of survival. If our boss, whom I'm sleeping with, assigns that job to you, are you absolutely positive that you're not going to call shenanigans?

So the frat rules are actually there for a very good reason, albeit one that a show like Star Trek likely wouldn't address with any seriousness (mostly because modern Trek - TNG and on) had so few veterans involved who actually comprehended the reason such rules exist. Me, I think that it would have made some fascinating storytelling in seasons 5 and on. Think of the scenarios: Trip is in command while Archer & T'Pol have been captured by villains, and Tucker can rescue only one. Which one does he save and how does he react afterward? And so on.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby WarpGirl » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:38 am

Silverbullet wrote:WG, that land the French STOLE from the natives. The natives lived on the land and had for centuries.

The European nations divided North america up among themselves. They subjugated the natives and killed them with guns and diseases. In the process they stole everything that wasn't nailed down.

How would the Europeans react if a boatload of Natives from North America were to land and jamb a flag in the ground and proclaim I claim this land in the name of PPowawatan the first. The Europeans would be bent all out of shape. but that is what they did to the natives on north America.


so France had no legal right to the land except the right of conquest. When the Europeans first hit North America there were millions of natives but in a few hundred years that ws down by several million.

France was selling what essential belonged to the natives.

SB


I'm sorry, but what did England do when they colonized Jamestown? What did the US do when they went west? What the heck type of legal right did they have massacaring and deporting thousands of men women and children along the trail of tears? Are you absolutely kidding me! The entire US was "bought" by right of conquest. And now I think I'm going to do eat some salt.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby putaro » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:50 am

WarpGirl wrote:Okay what the HECK! France had no legal right to there own territory in the US?????????? SB I don't know what kind of history they taught when you were in grade school but it wasn't what I learned.


WarpGirl! Shame on you! You need to go back and do a refresher in American history. I mean, seriously, you do. SB was exactly right. The Louisiana Purchase is a very important part of history.

France had a "right" to own territory in North America for the same reason England did - because they said so and they had guns and ships.

The United States did not exist when the French, English and Spanish were busy claiming territory all over North America. You might recall that the United States started as the "13 colonies" in New England. France claimed a good portion of Canada as well as the middle of North America. Pretty much everything that was not English and was not Spanish (the Southwest and California) was claimed by France.

Thomas Jefferson, when he was President, negotiated the Louisiana Purchase with France. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Purchase

Why do you think they speak French in Louisiana and Quebec? Cause they thought it was cool?
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby WarpGirl » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:57 am

Silverbullet wrote:Lewis and Clark were exploring the purchse. Land bought from France (who had no legal right to it)


I was responding to this sentence. And if you had read my post above you would have seen that I was agreeing with what you said here...
France had a "right" to own territory in North America for the same reason England did - because they said so and they had guns and ships.


My point is, that England, Spain, and France had no "legal right" to any portion of this country. SB Seems to think the US is exempt. It's not, in fact, it's guilty of even worse atrocities when it comes to its dealings with the true Native Americans of this country.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby putaro » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:10 am

WarpGirl wrote:My point is, that England, Spain, and France had no "legal right" to any portion of this country. SB Seems to think the US is exempt. It's not, in fact, it's guilty of even worse atrocities when it comes to its dealings with the true Native Americans of this country.


No, you two are in violent agreement as we used to call it - he's not saying anything different about legality than you are. Go back and review what you're both posting, slowly. I think you'll see that's the case. You said:

WarpGirl wrote:France had no legal right to there own territory in the US??????????

which actually sounds more like the position you're saying SB is taking (that the US is exempt) while SB was talking about how the territory was stolen from the Native Americans.

I do believe that you said his history was wrong and that's an area where I have to say, flatly, he's right and you're wrong.
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