Arranged marriages and Vulcan arranged marriages

[crystalswolf]

Thinking about it. Aquarius's suggestion seems more of a possibility if you view it that Spock thought he would be spared pon-farr by meditating his way out of it. The overly confident faith in his mediation abilities could have been because he'd meditated away less potent experiences with pon-farr easily.

[pdsldl]

In Blood Fever Tuvok says they go through it every seven years of their adult lives. So when do Vulcans consider themselves adults?

EMH: I'm concerned about Ensign Vorik's cortical readings. One returns to normal levels, then another one spikes. It's chaotic. As if the brain's regulatory system had simply shut down. I can't tell if he's making any progress with these meditations. I thought maybe you could suggest other possible treatments.
TUVOK: I cannot.
EMH: Is that because you don't know, or because you don't want to discuss it?
TUVOK: For both of those reasons there is little help that I can offer. It is inappropriate for me to involve myself in Ensign Vorik's personal situation.
EMH: For such an intellectually enlightened race, Vulcans have a remarkably Victorian attitude about sex.
TUVOK: That is a very human judgement, Doctor.
EMH: Then here's a Vulcan one. I fail to see the logic in perpetuating ignorance about a basic biological function.
TUVOK: There is nothing logical about the Pon farr. It is a time when instinct and emotion dominate over reason. It cannot be analysed by the rational mind, nor cured by conventional medicine. Anyone who has experienced it understands that it must simply be followed to its natural resolution.
EMH: Which is what, exactly?
TUVOK: There are three options that I am aware of. Taking a mate which Ensign Vorik has already attempted, the ritual combat which does not apply to his situation
EMH: Combat?
TUVOK: An ancient tradition of fighting for one's mate which as I have said, is not relevant here. The third alternative is the intensive meditation he has chosen to try.
EMH: Isn't there anything we can do to help him with that?
TUVOK: I believe that any interference would be unwelcome and counterproductive. You must allow him to face this challenge privately. If he possesses enough discipline to reach a point of psychological resolution, then his chemical imbalance should correct itself.
EMH: The Vulcan brain never ceases to amaze me. Thank you, Lieutenant. You've been a great help.

[Vorik's quarters]

VORIK: Go away. I said, go away! I'm sorry, sir.
TUVOK: No, I must apologise for the intrusion, particularly at this time.
VORIK: Then you know?
TUVOK: Yes. I regret that I must ask you some uncomfortable questions regarding Lieutenant Torres.
VORIK: Yes, sir?
TUVOK: It is important for me to know specifically what happened between the two of you. Was there any physical contact?
VORIK: Yes.
TUVOK: Please describe your actions.
VORIK: It's hard to remember. I was acting irrationally. I believe I approached her. I touched her face. I meant to be gentle, but she tried to move away, and then I was holding her more tightly, both hands on her face like this. It felt very important not to let go. I’m, I'm not certain why.
TUVOK: I believe you were initiating a telepathic mating bond.
VORIK: I didn't know it could happen that way. I wanted to bond with her, that much I remember clearly.
TUVOK: Apparently you've succeeded. Lieutenant Torres has been displaying unusual behaviour, very much like the early stages of Pon farr.
VORIK: How is that possible? She's not Vulcan.
TUVOK: There have been instances of Vulcans mating with members of other races.
VORIK: But she rejected me forcefully.
TUVOK: Even a brief moment of bonding may have been enough to disrupt her self-control, as the Pon farr does in us. In a half-Klingon, the effects may be even more extreme.
VORIK: I have to go to her.
TUVOK: You cannot. Lieutenant Torres is out of contact, on the planet.
VORIK: I'll find her. B'Elanna needs me and I need her.
TUVOK: It is a far more sensible strategy to get her safely back to Voyager, and then decide on the proper resolution.
VORIK: The resolution must be that we become mates. It is only logical.
TUVOK: Lieutenant Torres has never been a great follower of logic.
VORIK: You think she'll reject me again?
TUVOK: It might be wise to continue your meditative efforts.
VORIK: I'll do my best, sir.

[Cave]

TUVOK: It is difficult to estimate how soon her condition will become life threatening.
PARIS: Life threatening? She could die from this?
TUVOK: Yes.
PARIS: And you've gone through it every seven years of your adult life?
TUVOK: You only need to be concerned with Lieutenant Torres's situation.
PARIS: Right. Well, it looks like finding her won't be easy. Scanning range is limited to about twenty metres, and even that's not too reliable.

[Sickbay]

EMH: There. Your serotonin levels are stabilised for the moment, but I'm concerned about these fluctuations. It's becoming more difficult to compensate.
VORIK: I will increase my efforts to control them, Doctor.
EMH: I'd like you to consider an alternative treatment I've been developing.
VORIK: No. I will deal with this myself.
EMH: Ensign, your life is at risk.
VORIK: You don't understand how a Vulcan copes with this experience. It's a test of his character. I've already humiliated myself and Lieutenant Tuvok by allowing a private matter to become so public.
EMH: Give yourself a little credit. You're doing the best you can under unusually difficult circumstances. If you were back on Vulcan, you'd have your family and friends there to help you.
VORIK: I shouldn't need any help.
EMH: I know that self-sufficiency is very important to a Vulcan but there is nothing shameful in getting a little guidance every once in a while. I'd like you to consider my alternative, and then you can decide whether or not to try it.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

"...I'd hoped I'd be spared this but the ancient drives are too strong. Eventually they catch up with us. We are driven by forces we cannot control..."

It's interesting that I didn't catch him mentioning his human half. With this statement as only stated as a Vulcan, to me this sounds like he was hoping (in denial) that he would somehow be someone that wouldn't experience pon-farr...

And to me this sounds like a half-Vulcan thinking, hoping that he would be spared this because of the influence from his human half. But it did catch up with him, despite him being in his mid-to-late thirties at the time, probably having skipped it when his peers went through it as Vulcan "teens".

And Vorik was much younger than Spock when he had his pon farr, and Vorik's age is presumably the normal age for a first pon farr.

[EntAllat]

In Blood Fever Tuvok says they go through it every seven years of their adult lives. So when do Vulcans consider themselves adults?

Here's an idea I've been mulling about:

It's possible that Vulcans don't associate "adulthood" with sexual maturity. They may consider the onset of pon farr simply as a biological marker for readiness to successfully procreate (sexual feelings might be likely before pon farr, but a pregnancy an unlikely outcome?) and not culturally associate it with ideas of being "grown up".

In fact, since the Vulcan cultural rituals for children that we know about have a lot to do with surviving the harsh climate and with the mastery of emotions, I would suspect that one or more of those kind of cultural things would be Vulcan milestones for 'adulthood'. It might also be the reason why Sarek and Amanda treat Spock in a much more adult way than T'Les treats T'Pol despite the vast difference in their ages. (T'Pol seems to have greater difficulty with controlling her emotions than Spock did.)

[pdsldl]

It does seem as if the connection i as children is stronger than I thought.

Spock explains that Vulcans are married as children ("less than marriage, more than a betrothal") with the understanding that they will fulfill this commitment when they become adults. T'Pring says she picked Kirk as her champion because by the laws of their people the only way she could divorce him was with the kal'li'fee and Kirk wouldn't want her and if Spock won he would most likely release her. So the power was in Spocks hands.

T'Pol must have assumed that when she didn't return that Koss had released her. Big mistake on her part not to have checked but logic would say that if she didn't want him he would find a more suitable mate.

[crystalswolf]

After watching the section you're talking about, it could be that he thought it was late for pon-farr but it sounds like it fits the other way or either way equally (which puts us back to guessing).

"...I'd hoped I'd be spared this but the ancient drives are too strong. Eventually they catch up with us. We are driven by forces we cannot control..."

It's interesting that I didn't catch him mentioning his human half. With this statement as only stated as a Vulcan, to me this sounds like he was hoping (in denial) that he would somehow be someone that wouldn't experience pon-farr...

And to me this sounds like a half-Vulcan thinking, hoping that he would be spared this because of the influence from his human half. But it did catch up with him, despite him being in his mid-to-late thirties at the time, probably having skipped it when his peers went through it as Vulcan "teens".

And Vorik was much younger than Spock when he had his pon farr, and Vorik's age is presumably the normal age for a first pon farr.

I think we were in agreement here.

Here's an idea I've been mulling about:

It's possible that Vulcans don't associate "adulthood" with sexual maturity. They may consider the onset of pon farr simply as a biological marker for readiness to successfully procreate (sexual feelings might be likely before pon farr, but a pregnancy an unlikely outcome?) and not culturally associate it with ideas of being "grown up".

In fact, since the Vulcan cultural rituals for children that we know about have a lot to do with surviving the harsh climate and with the mastery of emotions, I would suspect that one or more of those kind of cultural things would be Vulcan milestones for 'adulthood'. It might also be the reason why Sarek and Amanda treat Spock in a much more adult way than T'Les treats T'Pol despite the vast difference in their ages. (T'Pol seems to have greater difficulty with controlling her emotions than Spock did.)

I've been thinking about how Vulcans would view adulthood too and what I thought was very similar to this. It's the same as how parents would view a 21 yo child still in school (even if they live on campus) but continues to require support in some form vs. a child 21 yo living on their own with a job and a family of their own. The requirements may be different for Vulcans though.

I even thought that they may consider adulthood to be much later than humans. And so they spend more time learning and training during their "youth"

[panyasan]

This whole discussion raised a question by me. If T'Pol is considered less emotional mature/adult in the eyes of her fellow Vulcans, why was she selected for the important task of being first officer on a Human ship? Did they saw it as opportunity to use the "more emotional" T'Pol, because she would be able to interact more with the emotional Human crew? Or did only her mother saw her that way, disappointed that her upbringing of bringing control over emotions seemed to have failed (and she would know T'Pol more privately and able to jugde how much she was in control as opposite to Vulcan strangers).

[pdsldl]

As far as T'Les knowing her better I'm not sure how true that would be as it seems T'Pol had been away from Vulcan (on the Seleya, as an operative for the Security Ministry or whatever they were called, as an aide to Soval,and then on Enterprise that just what we know about). They didn't seem all that close and much can change when you're away from home and some things you just don't write home about. Not sure Vulcans kept in contact with family anyway. T'Pol was only supposed to be aboard Enterprise for days not years so it may be that she didn't have many other duties at that time so could be sent. She may have had the qualifications for an open position on the bridge crew and able to offer assistance on the maiden voyage, or it may have been her emotionality her past training, or a combination of all those factors and others only Soval would have been aware of. I don't think it was something the Vulcans planned and it sure wasn't something Archer or the rest of Starfleet would have given much thought.

[crystalswolf]

Are there any other Vulcans that have treated T'Pol as T'Les did? From all of the conversations I can remember with T'Pol and other Vulcans, they've treated her like a colleague. Sure, one they've tried to control through the chain of command but something they would have done to any other adult Vulcan. And T'Pau treated her as an adult... although curious about her reactions but did seem to treat her like an adult.

I might be missing something, that's why I ask and is why I came to the conclusion that it's just the unique perspective of T'Les as her mother.

[pdsldl]

I'm not sure how much validity there may have been to T'Les' observations etc... of her daughter. T'Les was on a mission to get her married off so if she was anything like my mom is (punching my buttons and saying or doing things to elicit the response she wants) when she wants me to do something I may object to then I question her Mom's view of her. And might that view have been altered if T'Les knew of her difficulties in the expanse with the Pa'Nar and TD and just the wear and tear of trying to survive as best she could amongst those emotional humans with her weakened control?

[WarpGirl]

But there's a huge difference between an arranged marriage and a forced marriage. It's pretty clear to me that in Amok Time, T'Pring didn't have a whole lot of options open to her and that she would become the property of whichever man won the challenge. While Vulcans certainly have different mores, I think its perfectly acceptable to lay criticism at their feet for putting people - especially women - in highly unpleasant situations with few choices open to them.

OK I haven't read this whole thread yet and I am rapidly running out of time and will not have the I-Net at home so I've gotta rush. Sorry in advance... My biggest problem with the idea that Vulcans are somehow condoning slavery and "forced rape" in this situation is because that although races are shown with serious flaws in Trek the point of Trek is to show (most) of these cultures trying and succeeding in being more enlightened, then we are now. Vulcans do not advocate slavery and "forced rape." If they did Kali'fee wouldn't be an option at all.

If anyone watches Amok Time again or Blood Fever it's very, very clear that no woman is supposed to be "forced" to have sex with a man in Pon Farr. While in Amok Time they do use the term property to describe the outcome, I'm certain that the "Vulcan" use of the word does not jive with the human use of the word. And legally a spouce is a form of leagal property, that's why you have to get a legal divorce to end a marriage.

If a woman declares Kali'fee and does not fight for herself she willingly agrees to marry the victor. That's not a forced marriage. Also we have to remember that after the fight the male in Pon Farr is out of it when it is over. He either chooses to go through with it or not. It's highly unusual to go through with it.

It might stink from a human POV. But I don't like the idea that Vulcans are rapists and cruel to women. That's not how they were developed or intended to be. Here's the VLI on the entire ceremony.

Federation Standard:

Snokk walks to the center of the place of kun-ut kali-fi and rings the ceremonial gong once to show his arrival. After a pause, he rings it a second time to signal his readiness for the ceremony to commence. The marriage party now enters, lead by the matriarch of the male's clan. Other family members of both houses may or may not be present, according to the choice of the individuals.

After the marriage party has arrived and all have taken their places, Snokk and his clan matriarch give each other the ritual hand greeting, followed by a brief mind meld to confirm pon farr has arrived. If Snokk has friends present, they are introduced to the matriarch.

T'Puk: What you are about to see comes down from the time of the Beginning. This is the Vulcan heart, this is the Vulcan soul -- this is our way. (Pause) Kali farr! (Time for challenge!)

Snokk approaches the ceremonial gong to ring it a third time but T'Pril steps between him and the gong.

T'Pril: Kali-fi!

With challenge having been given, Snokk will withdraw to the side to await the coming combat. In most cases, the plak-tau will begin to take control.

T'Puk: T'Pril, you have chosen the kali-fi. You are prepared to become the property of the victor? T'Pril: I am prepared. T'Puk: Snokk, do you accept the kali-fi according to our laws and customs?

Snokk may or may not reply, depending on how deep he is in the plak-tau. If able to speak, he will accept the challenge, otherwise it is accepted for him.

T'Puk: T'Pril, you will chose your champion. T'Pril: As it was in the dawn of our days, as it is today, as it will be for all tomorrows, I make my choice. I choose this one.

T'Pril will point out her champion. In this case, a male named Tupak. A couple minutes are given for the champion to consider.

T'Puk: It is done. Tupak, decide. Tupak: I accept kali-fi. T'Puk: Here begins the act of combat for possession of the woman T'Pril. As it was at the time of the Beginning, so it is now. Bring forth the lirpa.

Two ceremonial guards will bring forth the lirpas and give one each to Snokk and Tupak.

T'Puk: If both survive the lirpa, combat will continue with the ahn-wun. It has begun, let no-one interfere.

Everyone but Snokk and Tupak will back out of the way and the combat will begin. They will fight with the lirpas until one of them is dead or at least one of the lirpas is broken. If both are still alive, the combat will continue with the ahn-wun. In the unlikely event that both survive the ahn-wun, combat will continue with additional weapons of the matriarch's choice, including daggers, spears, swords or other weapons, until one is killed.

T'Puk: Snokk, you have prevailed in combat for possession of the woman T'Pril. Do you wish to bond with she who requested the kali-fi?

In every known case, the act of combat to the death with another will break the plak-tau and allow the male to regain near-normal control of himself. The winning male will have to weigh logically the choice of whether or not to bond with a woman who had doubts about him and requested kali-fi. There is no stigma if the male choses to free the female from their bond and this is usually done. If he chooses to complete the bond, it is likely that the couple will live separately after consummating the bonding.

Snokk: I acknowlege that you who would be my wife has doubts as to my worthiness as a husband. I free you from our bond. Live long and prosper. T'Pril: Live long and prosper, Snokk.

The matriarch may or may not make a statement to close the ceremony.

As for real arranged marriages... Like everything else they can be good or bad. It all depends on reasons and people.

[honeybee]

Condoning women as property - and a law which gives them the option of a fight to the death or marriage - is FORCED. A woman becoming the property of a man is slavery. Slavery = rape. The idea of Kali'fee somehow making this morally correct is laughable to the point of absurdity. Amok Time revealed that Vulcans, for all their pretensions, are not as enlightened as humans in certain ways. This makes them interesting.

In the upthread, WG, you defended your characterization of T'Pring as a "whore" because she agreed - because a law gave her no choice in the matter - to become the property of a man. If a law makes you the property of someone against your will (and there is no guarantee of the outcome of the Kali'fee), this is and will always be slavery - and a slave cannot give informed consent to sexual congress. Just ask Amnesty International. And even if anyone is ignorant and ill-informed enough to believe that wives become the property of their husbands or vice versa, martial rape is illegal in all 50 states, in the EU, most Asian countries and Canada. Vulcan marriage customs were intended to show a dark side to Vulcan culture, and they did so. There were a reasons why they were kept secret.

Barbaric (and I mean that) Vulcan marriage customs forced T'Pring into a corner. I'm arguing that she was in a sympathetic position, despite her coldness. Vulcans may not - due to their biology - see things as strongly as I do - but I'm not the one who decided to start throwing human morality at them.

[Asso]

Condoning women as property - and a law which gives them the option of a fight to the death or marriage - is FORCED. A woman becoming the property of a man is slavery. Slavery = rape. The idea of Kali'fee somehow making this morally correct is laughable to the point of absurdity. Amok Time revealed that Vulcans, for all their pretensions, are not as enlightened as humans in certain ways. This makes them interesting.

In the upthread, WG, you defended your characterization of T'Pring as a "whore" because she agreed - because a law gave her no choice in the matter - to become the property of a man. If a law makes you the property of someone against your will (and there is no guarantee of the outcome of the Kali'fee), this is and will always be slavery - and a slave cannot give informed consent to sexual congress. Just ask Amnesty International. And even if anyone is ignorant and ill-informed enough to believe that wives become the property of their husbands or vice versa, martial rape is illegal in all 50 states, in the EU, most Asian countries and Canada. Vulcan marriage customs were intended to show a dark side to Vulcan culture, and they did so. There were a reasons why they were kept secret.

Barbaric (and I mean that) Vulcan marriage customs forced T'Pring into a corner. I'm arguing that she was in a sympathetic position, despite her coldness. Vulcans may not - due to their biology - see things as strongly as I do - but I'm not the one who decided to start throwing human morality at them.

I can't but agree totally with that.
I want only add something: for me it is a monumental error the idea that it's wrong to interfere with different customs and traditions. It's necessary having respect, understanding, comprehending. But what is wrong, that is wrong and it is cowardice, if we don't try to settle things. With respect, with prudence, ready to admit our errors themselves. But we can't remain distant and immovable, looking at the sufferings of the others, like if these sufferings were something which doesn't touch even us. And, in any case, history teaches that it's futile thinking to remain isolated. Customs and traditions will always merge: you attempt to avoid something and this something will reach you.

[honeybee]

You are right Asso. And certainly, the issue is tricky and difficult. Respect and understanding is absolutely key when dealing with other cultures, and it's morally wrong to rigidly apply one's own cultural standards on others. Yet, on the other hand, becoming so rigid in one's objectification of other cultures as to turn a blind eye to suffering and oppression is equally wrong. Iran recently invoked "cultural tolerance" when defending their right to stone a woman to death for adultery.

I just feel strongly that every sentient being, regardless of species or gender, has the right to physical and mental autonomy within reason. Whether you are talking about physical rape, forced marriage or even Tolaris style mind-violation, a person should have the right say no. Being compelled under threat of violence to oneself or another, like the Kali'fee, simply does not equal consent. Being forced by threat of imprisonment or law also does not equal consent.

Do I think this can be complicated by circumstances such as the life-threatening nature of pon farr or even the nature of how aliens procreate in cogenitor? Yes. Species also have a right to survive - and it can be very difficult to balance the wants of an individual with the needs of the many. But treating a person as though they have no right to their body or mind is not a hallmark of an enlightened civilization, and it's perfectly acceptable to sympathize with victims coercion and ask the society to mend its ways.

[Alelou]

Since Koss was not yet in the throes of pon farr, I'm not sure I see that marriage as truly forced. It was manipulated, maybe even blackmailed, but T'Pol negotiated and ultimately consented to it. It was for her mother, obviously -- but I did get the impression she could have chosen to just run for the hills, if she was willing to pretty much just abandon Vulcan and her mom. That would have been a lot to give up, however, especially for a human who hadn't declared himself yet.