Arranged marriages and Vulcan arranged marriages

[panyasan]

Any relationship not formed for the purpose of having children would be illogical to a Vulcan mind.

Which explains why "childern" is the first thing T'Les brings up in her conversation with T'Pol when she is confronted with Trip. I am very interested in T'Pols view on this subject, I always got the feeling she would like childern with Trip. Maybe one reason she didn't want to be involved with Trip: the natural expectation of a Vulcan (and Humans - they want kids as well) can't be met. In the conversation T'Pol seems to hope it's possible and I also got the impression she would like childern with Trip.

[pdsldl]

It seemed they could break it off before Pon Farr (T'Pol assumed her betrothal was off when she refused to show up for the wedding) became a factor because once that happened it was a matter of life and death. If your life depends on claiming your betrothed then it makes more sense that you would find a fight to the death more acceptable, especially if you are being driven by instinct.

As far as forced or arranged marriages for me it depends on the circumstances. If there are severe societal consequences (Stoning, death, jail time) that force unwilling couples to follow through then to me it's not really a marriage and all bets are off. T'Pol would have fallen in this category for me.

If the couple is only facing censure from parents/family/friends and consent then they willingly entered into the marriage and should honor it. And it not just about sex. It's also emotional fidelity. Just because you don't consummate a relationship physically doesn't mean you are being faithful to your vows.

SB the shock of Kirk's supposed death resolved Spock's Pon Farr much the way I assume the meditation, excessive physical exertion in a not to the death sparring match options were said to. Makes me wonder why the fight to the death option wouldn't have the same affect or maybe it did and the marriages take place and the wife is there for sure in 7 years.

[Enerdhil]

I visit India approximately each two years, to attend a conference. In time I developed several friendships with colleagues from different regions of that country. Two years ago, I and some other western friends were invited to a garden party with one of our Indian fellows. There were about 7 or 8 Indian couples there. All people had higher university degrees, including some wifes who didn't work at universities or research institutes, but even among them there were some with Master or Ph.D.'s.

In some moment, one German friend asked about the arranged marriages, almost all Indian couples had it. He claimed how the situation was unfair, both in terms of the female role (quoting old tradition of the bride's family to give money or goods to the bridegroom in order to adjust the marriage) and in terms of the choice (each person being able to find the loved partner by himself). It was interesting to see how those wifes came to defend their tradition. One was married to the director of the computer science division, had a master degree, spoke 9 languages (5 western and 4 native) and had meet scarcely the now husband before marriage (he was doing PhD in Canada and had come back to India to marry - after the marriage was settled). However, she insisted that the Indian costume was better to the marriage, because the families would have better knowledge of themselves, reducing problems between one of the partners and the family of the other. She claimed that love and fondness developed and could be maintained - in long term basis - better in this way, as opposed to the western costume of 'falling in love', marrying and divorcing...

It appears to me that the proposed Vulcan marriage does not diverges too much from this scenario. Even if it is arranged at early ages, that could lead to a gratifying bond between the couple.

Coming back to the Vulcan ones, in the case of Spock it appears that the bond is formed well after the engagement. In "This side of paradise" (and in a second episode that I don't remember the title now) he meets formers female 'girlfriends' (from his time on Starfleet academy and initial duty period). So he was able to, let's say, try having involvement with others, even having an arranged partner (T'Pring). It appears that, in this case, it also occurred to her (and lead to a better bond). The same can be applied to T'Pol, even having Koss as a future partner, she could get attracted and involved with Trip.

As for Spock return to Enterprise, I believe it is said somewhere that the blood fever can be controlled by the fight, so after ending it he didn't had the strong biological need to mate her.

[aadarshinah]

And it not just about sex. It's also emotional fidelity. Just because you don't consummate a relationship physically doesn't mean you are being faithful to your vows.

But would a Vulcan marriage be about emotional anything though? If they supress all emotion, than, provided that one spouse is there for the other at his/her pon farr, would either really care if the other is not faithful - emotionally or otherwise - to him/her between?

Is it just me, or is this thread making anyone else wonder what their parents would say if you told them you wanted to marry an alien?

addendum:

Coming back to the Vulcan ones, in the case of Spock it appears that the bond is formed well after the engagement. In "This side of paradise" (and in a second episode that I don't remember the title now) he meets formers female 'girlfriends' (from his time on Starfleet academy and initial duty period).

If I remember correctly, one of the girls told him she loved him and he almost immediately broke it off (if it wasn't just plain out of the blue, I don't remember too well), as he was unable to form such an attachment to her.

[pdsldl]

Vulcans may deny it but the look in T'Les' eyes said that connection to her husband was emotional. They may call it a bond and they may say that the bond forms a connection between the couples but it's just semantics. There had to be emotions on some level. They try to suppress their emotions and not let them affect their decisions but if there weren't emotions involved then why would T'Pring care who she was mated to. Spock would provide prestige, property and children if that's all that important. And as much as I hate the line Koss even said he wanted T'Pol to be happy.

[honeybee]

There's a lot of contradiction between what Vulcans say is the cultural norm, and what we see onscreen. But there does seem to be a desire for happiness or contentment, as they would call it. It's true, when Koss finally comprehends just how much T'Pol resents him - he lets her go.

However, I have to say that I don't consider being "won" in a challenge as "agreeing" to be married. The whole "I'd rather see you dead than marry you" is pretty telling in T'Pring's case. I think she agrees to marry Spock and satisfy his pon farr because the law requires it of her, not because she wants to. That's coercion. Her declaration that she'd return to Stonn is her outright statement that she's not a willing participant in this and Spock is being forced upon her. It's curious as to why she didn't try to break off the engagement beforehand, the way T'Pol did, but perhaps she did succumb to social pressure. Or perhaps she is just cold and thought the challenge was the easiest way to get rid of Spock.

But in any case, just because arranged marriages work in some societies, they clearly don't work all the time and there should be some out other than a fight to the death.

But I also think that human standards of fidelity simply cannot apply to Vulcans in the context of Pon Farr. Even though the circumstances would be extreme and rare, if a married person was faced with the choice of satisfying someone other than their spouse's pon farr or letting that person die or satisfying their own pon farr without their spouse, I think it's not fair to judge them. I can very well imagine the person's spouse not only being forgiving but seeing the "save" as logical. It's hard to imagine many scenarios where this would occur - but I suppose it would happen in areas of isolation, times of war and in deep space travel. Tuvok certainly had to face this possibility.

[Silverbullet]

Honeybee. In one of your stories I believe you have T'Pol say she was forced to satisfy some males Pon Farr on board a ship. This would amount to Rape. She woud be unwilling but forced in to having Sex with a male who was not her mate or that she cared for. I might be wrong as it has been a while since I read the story.

Spock, in one episode he was thrown back in time before the re-awakining and reverted to a primative Vulcan. He ate Meat and had Sex with a Female he met there. She was trapped back in time and for some reason could not return to her own time but Spock was able to return.

[honeybee]

That was the MU, story, Silverbullet. And it certainly was meant to imply that T'Pol had been pressured into satisfying a the mens' pon farr rather than gone completely willingly. It's a fair interpretation to call it rape, but it's also fair to say that a Vulcan would understand the situation as simply an unpleasant fact of life. It was meant to show that the Vulcans were darker in the MU just as the humans were - and since they were not as free to travel back and forth to Vulcan as they were in the RU, they did what they had to to survive.

[Asso]

Honestly, for me this is a strange way to paint the wicked Vulcans of MU.
It's a way very Human-like, I think, isn't it?
Not too much different, though, from mine, I must say; even if, to tell the truth, I think I had a little more compassion for T'Pol.
For those who have been able to read the second chapter of my MU story.

[Enerdhil]

Honeybee. In one of your stories I believe you have T'Pol say she was forced to satisfy some males Pon Farr on board a ship. This would amount to Rape. She woud be unwilling but forced in to having Sex with a male who was not her mate or that she cared for. I might be wrong as it has been a while since I read the story.

I haven't read that story, but I would rather feel that situation to be a logical one for interplanetary vessels (let's guess: a 400-crew ship, will have - equalitarian society - 200 males on board, that means - supposing homogeneous distribution - close to 30 pon-farr per year, that is, about 1 each 2 weeks. even not taking in account the female pon-farr, it is obvious that the ship cannot send crewmen to Vulcan for mating, neither making return trips), so prefer to assume that this was a common behavior in Vulcan society, coupling to another person during absence of their respective mates during the pon-farr.

[pdsldl]

I assumed that was a big part of why Tuvok said it a private matter and that no Vulcan would intrude or suggest how another dealt with their Pon Farr. It was a fact of their existence and they were expected to deal with it discreetly and as they saw fit. That there were un-bonded Vulcans available to assist as needed would have been a practical way to deal with it. Would have thought those Vulcans who served on human ships would have some way to deal with it when it happened.

[Silverbullet]

I agree that the Vulcans would have a way to deal with it. Priestsess who would servcie the males. But Forcing a female to do it against her will would not seem the Vulcan way. Provisions certainly would be in place to handle this withot resorting to force.

BTW, read in my Star Trek Encyclopedia that Vulcan children are betrothed at seven and a telepathic bond is formed between them which compels them to marry. Apparently then, that bond had been broken by the Parents or it did not work on T'Pol because of the distance she was from Vulcan. She did not return to marry Koss. I think that when Koss spoke to T'Pol in the garden of her Mothers house he said he wanted to start the Betrothal again. also Encyclopedia sttes that Vulcan only has ONE sun not two.

[aadarshinah]

...also Encyclopedia sttes that Vulcan only has ONE sun not two.

ENT has Vulcan at 16 light years away, which would make it 40 Edrandi and give it three suns, but this is the Trekverse. There are liberties taken with the laws of physics.

Priestsess who would servcie the males. But Forcing a female to do it against her will would not seem the Vulcan way. Provisions certainly would be in place to handle this withot resorting to force.

Presumably, it would not be against the gal's will most the time. If you were an utterly logical Vulcan female who repressed all your emotions, wouldn't 99 out of 100 times you find it to be the most logical course of action to submit to your parent's decision on your choice of mate? And, when said mate was either going to die, kill, or (possibly) rape you to resolve his blood fever, wouldn't the logical course again be to allow said mating to occur without fuss when pon farr is the reason for the marrage in the first place?

I'm not saying it's ideal, but it is logical.

[pdsldl]

I don't think distance mattered with bond as Spock was quite some distance from home when his bond kicked in. Koss wasn't in Pon Farr so that wouldn't have been an issue but she must have assumed Koss and/or his parents went to a priest and had the betrothal bond severed. T'Les asked T'Pol if Trip was why she didn't want to bond with Koss, which makes me think maybe the betrothal was something that connected their minds like a homing beacon to force them home when the time came if they hadn't married before that. More like a pre-bond.

[Silverbullet]

Aadarhinah, you lost me there. I think you started out by discussing T'Pol being forced to help males on a ship through thier Pon Farr then to childrent submitting to thier parents choice of mates.

In the former T'Pol would be submitting to Rape because she was an unwilllling participant. she was forced to do it.

The second the child has no choice in the matter and probably at that age could not make a logical decision. I feel that Parents should at least wait until the child is 12, able to be rational and let the child participate in the decision of a mate or whether to have one chosen at all.

In the Episode Home T-Les seem to imply that T'Pol even if she has reacher her majority must obey the wishes of her mother. To go along with Vulcan customs and traidtions even if she does not agree with them. T-Les often semed to be lying to T'Pol as she would not meet t'Pol eyes or look her in the face when speaking with her about Trip.

Aside: I have heard that in the first draft of the script for Home Trip and T-Pol were suposed to Kiss in the Garden before going in to the house. Which would square with Trip's questin of What does your Mother know about us?" Us seemingly meaning that there was something going on between Trip and T'Pol before they left for Vulcan. If that were so T'Pol's decision to marry Koss must have been terribly hard for her.