AU or Not AU?

[WarpGirl]

It's just the things you say anout the writers and producers they are not flattering. Considering you've never met them before it's disconcerting. You've even said things about Scott Bakula that were damning. We get it you don't like Archer you don't like A/T heck I DON'T EITHER! But these are writers and TV people not Hitler. The venom in your words gets tiresome.

[honeybee]

I suppose you could have some meaningless sex just to have some, but that would be about it...

Assuming two points that are open to interpretation 1) that T'Pol doesn't have another lover (like, say....hmmmm....I don't know Captain Trip ) and 2) that female Vulcans go through Pon Farr on their own without being bonded to a male - it would be necessary for for T'Pol to satisfy the blood fever somehow. That's the only scenario where I could see her sleeping with Archer given his condition - and it would be morally grey of her to do so because he won't remember and it would be very awkward for her to seduce him given his memory is of theirs being a professional relationship. Of course, people have sex with people they are not in love with all the time - but it still smacks of something wrong on both sides. It would just be sad. (I wrote it. :hangs head in shame: and it came out sad but then it was meant to be sad.)

But I choose to think the moral thing to do would be for T'Pol to find a lover who could satisfy the blood fever who would remember and be able to make an informed choice. (Shout out to Escriba's Twilight-verse story.)

Assuming for the sake of argument, that she did develop some sort of Florence Nightingale syndrome and developed feelings for Archer - it would be even more sad for her to sleep with him and have him forget. Depressingly, mind blowing-ly sad. I don't think that it's an invalid interpretation to see that timeline as sad - after all, the Earth has been destroyed, the galaxy is doomed. . .and T'Pol's life sucks. I do have a hard time seeing this as a romantic scenario, though.

Again, I don't think there's any real attraction there - I choose to believe that Phlox is wrong on that point - but even if there was something going on, it would just be very depressing.

edited to add: It is true that Sussman wrote the first draft of this as the big, A/T fall in love scenario and he thought it would have to be scrapped because they were going with TnT in the third season. Instead, he rewrote it to make the A/T stuff very subtle and to apparently change it so that no one remembers the Twilight-timeline. Beyond that, I don't know what was in the first draft. But as shot, the A/T stuff is thin gruel indeed (TM: Alelou)

[WarpGirl]

Yeah. But I still say that a Vulcan woman cannot get Blood Fever without her mate. Search For Spock, and Amok Time seem to back that up. And of course it's canon in Blood Fever on VOY.

[honeybee]

One more thing. . .Sussman clearly got the idea for Archer's condition from the film Memento. Which is a good movie. Not only does it have a guy who can't make new memories, the film is structured in reverse. It's a total brain teaser. It's not very romantic, though.

[WarpGirl]

Are you sure it wasn't 50 First Dates! Sorry I just had to do it in order to lighten the mood.

[Silverbullet]

You cannot take the Vulcan out of T-Pol else you have a Human woman. So givven that vulcans put the needs of the many first no florence nightingale . don't know how that was put in with any logic to it. May have been when it was put together that part of susssmans original draft was left in.

Hoshi might have stayed with Archer for 12 years and nursed him she always struck as that kind of person.

But t-Po's ultimate loyalty lay with the Humans, Vucans and the galaxy as a whole not on one person. She may have felt g ratitude but she ws NOT obligated to Archer. She was not guilty for the anomoly or his actions.

[WarpGirl]

You're joking right? Um did you see what they did to the "Vulcan" in T'Pol all season 3? Oh and it's alright to give Hoshi a Florence Nightengail complex but not T'Pol, right... That makes perfect sense.

[honeybee]

Silverbullet, we get it. You hate the episode. You've made it clear. I was posing some what ifs to open the discussion - a discussion I'd rather not see shut down by one person's firm stand. I respect your opinion - but I do want people to feel comfortable with dissenting opinions and not feel like they will be subjected to repetitive negativity every time they pose a what if? or a suppose you look at it this way? Please say your piece, but I'd really like to hear what others have to say as well - even if they disagree with what I think or what you think.

People should be free to explore different opinions/interpretations without facing a wall of negativity from any poster who will not see a different point of view. I said earlier that I believe that Vulcans have conflicting ethical codes - I think that's a valid position that deserves at least respect, if not agreement.

[WarpGirl]

I'm still not sure that they are conflicting ethics. OK it's like this... We all get taught certain ethical and moral codes, some of these vary in certain cultures but mostly the biggies are pretty standard. You don't Murder, you don't steal, you don't rape, so on and so on... Well Vulcans have their sets of ethical and moral standards, you don't allow your emotions to control you, family comes before yourself, society comes before family, so on and so on... Now people have different interpitations on all of these standards. Is it murder even if it's justified, is it stealing if you really need it to survive, is it rape because you got a wife from a conquered enemy, so on and so on... Go with me for a minute.

So T'Pol might think, "I did my duty, I gave up my home, my people, everything to help them. Archer saved my life and lost any real life he had. My duty should be to him now because honor demands it. I can't do anymore for scoiety." Is that a conflict of logic, not to her it isn't.

[Silverbullet]

Honeybee, have sent you a PM a few minutes ago.

I am out of this conversation.

[honeybee]

I'm sorry you took offense or singled out, Silverbullet. But I stand by the idea that everyone should feel comfortable with expressing what if? and how about? scenarios, without being subjected to constant negativity. Caveats exist for a reason. I just would like to see a positive space for open discussion here - where everyone feels comfortable and everyone respects each other.

[Escriba]

Actually, Sussman's script was less A/T friendly than the actual episode.

In the part where T'Pol tells Archer "Our relationship has evolved over the years." And Archer asks "Exactly how far has it evolved?" The script had T'Pol answering "Not that far."

It was while shooting the episode that they decided to cut that part out.

[honeybee]

I had no idea about that, Escriba. That does put a fly in the ointment of the A/T interpretation of the episode.

I like that - because as I said earlier, any way I can think of them having a romance breaks down as very depressing and sad. I prefer them to have a kind of sibling relationship rather than a romantic one.

[WarpGirl]

I love you Escriba! You ALWAYS bring the best points out. Like I said I have no doubt that TPTB were split in 2 camps, A/T TnT but even IF Twilight had been a full on A/T blowout I wouldn't care that much. Why AU and a re-set we TnTers still got what we wanted. Well sort of...

[Escriba]

It is a very sad episode.

The three canon AU of Enteprise has different tones, which is why I like them. Mirror Universe is the "evil counterparts" one, and it's fun in it's own twisted way. Twilight is tragic and sad. And E2 is, even if Earth is destroyed in it, optimistic and full of life and future.

It is interesting to work with those different points of views of the Trek universe.