AU or Not AU?

[Alelou]

I liked the animated series. I remember I used to get up at 7am or something ungodly like that to watch it on Saturday mornings. Granted, I was still a teenager, but I was delighted to have more Star Trek of any kind at that point.

Not to mention, it had the real actors, and it got to do neato (and, okay, occasionally cheesy) things the real series couldn't have possibly pulled off.

And even if it's not widely considered canon (probably handy since M'Ress and Arex would be difficult in live action), and even though I have to confess I've forgotten a lot of the stories, we have picked up stuff from it -- Shi'Khar (sp) on Vulcan, and stuff about the Orions, etc. etc.

[WarpGirl]

WG--Who said we didn't want the link? Personally I'd like to see it, if you're presenting the ST V isn't canon thing as a fact. I would be curious to see any evidence you have supporting that fact. No one's hollering--all I've done is ask you to substantiate this.

I was just asking. Jeeze. And I didn't say you were hollering, I was merely stating that in every franchise there are groups of fans hollering about what is and is not canon. You know this since you are active in SW's fanon. And I think that it's a stupid situation to be in because the bottom line is whoever is in control of any given franchise can set and dismiss canon at will therefore we the fans really have nothing to argue over because ten years from now it can all be different. Anyway I'm ticked off because so far I can't find my link! I knew I should have saved it.

[Aquarius]

You know this since you are active in SW's fanon.

Yes I do, and I have my own opinions about that, which I won't discuss here.

And I think that it's a stupid situation to be in because the bottom line is whoever is in control of any given franchise can set and dismiss canon

Yep, and as KTR established, that's Paramount, not Gene.

KTR--if you're here, did Paramount specifically mention TAS in their official position? Or did they just say "Canon is live action and on screen"? Just curious about how it's been worded from on-high.

[WarpGirl]

I didn't ask you to discuss it. I was using it as an example because it's a fandon we BOTH have experience with.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

KTR--if you're here, did Paramount specifically mention TAS in their official position? Or did they just say "Canon is live action and on screen"? Just curious about how it's been worded from on-high.

The official position has been "live action on screen" for as long as Trek was produced (TOS-ENT). I'm not sure if TAS was specifically mentioned but I think it might have been since TAS was one of the things that they had to relate to when instructing writers for their live action shows and movies. Other things would be novels, comics, video games, reference manuals etc. that was also deemed non-canon. Still, writers could incorporate "facts" from these sources in the live action material, but then those facts (like the Vulcan capital ShiKahr) would, by virtue of having been presented on screen, become canon, but not the work(s) those facts first appeared in.

I also have to add that a few years ago, when TAS was released on DVD, they said as a marketing ploy that TAS was now canon. However, since no new Trek was being made and ENT had already ended, it was a meaningless statement (as I said, it was a marketing ploy) since by then there wouldn't be any new facts in TAS for writers to use, since no Trek in the old continuity (TOS-ENT) was being produced. And no new Trek will ever be produced again in the old continuity.

Abrams Trek is a completely different ballgame since its a reboot that can do whatever it wants with what was established before.

The operative thing is that TAS was non-canon for the duration of the old Trek. Heck, they could even proclaim (as I'm sure WarpGirl would like) all the novels, comics and whatnot to be "canon" now since it really doesn't matter anymore.

[WarpGirl]

Please don't assume what I would like KTR. Personally I could care less what kind of labels Paramount or any other company slaps on a franchise to make money. The truth is ALL merchandice in a franchis is a part of it labels be hanged.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

I'm not assuming anything, unless I'm misremembering that you've previously stated that you would like more things to be canon in Trek.

[Aquarius]

WG--I'm not here to tit-for-tat with you. To me, you came on kind of strong with the " do you want the link or not" thing and you made a pronouncement about ST V that seemed to come out from nowhere. I'll own this one and say "my bad" for reacting strongly and for asking you to back up the claim--if there was a change in policy I was unaware of I wanted to hear about it...but understand that as proud as you are of being so strong and opinionated, you open yourself to a strong and opinionated reply.

KTR--thanks for the clarification.

I think that declaring the novels canon would be problematic, though, since there are so many of them--the continuity would be a nightmare!!!! I wouldn't want to touch that one with a ten-foot tractor beam!

[WarpGirl]

It's more along the lines of making up there minds. Yes they "say" its all live action, but you mentioned things coming from books, becoming facts. To me it makes no rational sense that the name of the Capital of Vulcan comes from a book but the book itself is not canon. To me it's neither rational or logical. Paramount PAYS people to write books, either stories or technical manuals. It pays people to develop video games, board games, and other things. To turn around and say these things have nothing to do with the rest of Trek is silly. BUT it's not something I CARE about, I'll use whatever's available that makes sense with what I am writing. Official canon, fine, not, that's fine too.

Most of the time what gets me annoyed are things I think SHOULD NOT be canon. In any case wishful thinking is one thing, arguing with other people about definitions is another.

Aquarius I'm just sorry I lost the dang link. I only asked if you still wanted the link because someone made two posts after mine.

[Transwarp]

Seems to me a problem with many of these sources being canon is the contradictions they raise. You'd have to be suspicious of a source that doesn't try to respect its origins. I've only seen a couple of the animated episodes (way back when they were first broadcast!) and I remember being surprised by one episode when the characters took a space walk. Instead of spacesuits, they had these force-field belts. Nothing like that ever appeared in the series. I know why the animators did it: instead of drawing space-suited figures that all looked alike, they only had to draw a yellow line around the characters, indicating the force-field was on. So should force-field belts become part of canon?

I remember having a similar moment the first time I saw the new-look Klingons in a ST movie. (Try our new, improved Klingons! Now with Borax, Bleach, and Brighteners! Plus, if you act now, you get this set of bat'leths FREE!) The new Klingons were completely unlike the TOS Klingons, but they became canon. The difference was finally explained, in a contorted and convoluted way, by a couple of season four ENT episodes, but for years everyone just sort of ignored it.

Bottom line? It seems canon is whatever fandom accepts as canon. This site even has its own canon, developed independently of other sources. For example, Anna is the first name of Lieutenant Hess. Movies are generally accepted as canon (minus ST V). Some books appear to have reached canon status. (I'm hoping the Martin/Mangels books DON'T become canon, since I don't care for secret-agent Trip. Their Trip is implausible, unlikely, and completely out of character with what I saw on the screen. Another example of not respecting origins.) The majority of books, cartoons and video games don't make the 'canon' cut, despite the fact that bits and pieces have become canon. I have no problem with that; you can accept stuff from the animated episode about Spock's childhood without accepting the force-field belts.

Just my 2000 millicents worth.

[WarpGirl]

Oh that's too perfect. And it illustrates my point, that Parmount or whoever controls ST at a certain time can do whatever, whenever, and call it canon. We'll still do things like name Hess and it becomes "official." But because I am at heart a non-conformist, I will say that I have no intention of calling Lt. Hess Anna. Why simply because EVERYONE else does it.

[Aquarius]

Right, but there was a point to them declaring the novels not canon, because they wanted to be free to develop ST any way they saw fit without being beholden to anything any other author came up with or answer to anyone but themselves for continuity (which, we all know, even the best of them have screwed that up from time to time any way). Now, since there is no more ST in its original incarnation being developed, it might seem like a free pass to just declare it all canon willy-nilly, but then all those contradictions Transwarp mentioned would have to be reconciled, because different authors have the crew doing different things during overlapping stardates, and the "original, official" canon would also end up contradicted because an author might've written a novel 15 years ago that says one thing, not knowing that TPTB would come along years later and develop a series or movie that does something else.

Personally, I thought that the non-canonization of the novels was the best thing they could've done, because when they're not all interdependent, you can skip authors or story arcs you don't like and not "miss" anything in the grand scheme of things. Plus, it freed up authors to do whatever the heck they wanted, within the boundaries sent down from Paramount and/or Gene.

[WarpGirl]

I agree about the novels. But some of the VOY I read were so awesome they could have been wonderful episodes. The technical books however, and the Language books, I wouldn't mind seeing canonized simply because it's tech stuff.

[Aquarius]

I agree about the novels. But some of the VOY I read were so awesome they could have been wonderful episodes. The technical books however, and the Language books, I wouldn't mind seeing canonized simply because it's tech stuff.

I know, right? And that really is the one and only major drawback to the non-canonization I can think of. Sometimes I wonder if those standout novels may have actually started out as scripts that were pitched to the show, and TPTB passed on them, so the writer retooled it as a novel and the publisher bit? I s'pose it could happen.

A lot of them, especially from the 70s and 80s, also started out as fanfic writers. I'm still so tickled pink to see Jean Lorrah at Media West every year! I don't act like a dork about it but secretly I'm all like "I'm not worthy! " whenever I see her in a panel or pass her in the dealers room or whatever.

[honeybee]

I think the current Enterprise relaunch is really good - and I know people who think of it as the official continuation of the story since the show was cancelled and all that rot. Plus, the books are practically continuity porn in the way they try not only to not contradict what was onscreen in any of the series and also try and resolve stuff that contradicted other stuff. Plus, they undid *the_abomination* without totally ignoring it PLUS got TnT back together. I may not like everything in the books, but I do bow before the feat that they've accomplished.

But I always thought good story should come first before adhering to the letter of what came before.

And I more than understand why the books weren't canon as far as the tv series writers went.