Expectations for T'Pol

[Escriba]

Well, I have my own theory about T'Pol that doesn't agree with everybody and can be arguable, but it has to do with her apparent desire of ruining her life. If the writers were consistent about her characterization it was in that: T'Pol can fight, argue and defy anything for somebody else, but never for herself. If there were four doors with the signs "Heavenly life" for the first, "normal and rather happy life" for the second, "lousy life" for the third and "Living Hell" for the fourth, she would go directly toward the "Living Hell" door. She sistematically destroys every chance of happiness she has.

About Tolaris... well, has anybody re-watched the episode recently? Maybe it's just me, but in the Mess Hall scene, when the two of them are alone and he begans to chat with her she seems shy and a little thrilled. Like... I don't know... like somebody who's thinking "Oh, goody, I have a friend." Am I the only one who thinks T'Pol had a very lonely and unhappy childhood?

About Vulcans and feelings... You just have to study the Romans to understand them. Or not. I remember a Historian who said that we could understand an alien better than we can understand Roman culture. There are some letters from Cicero to his wife (and I'm going to use this reference in a future chapter to explain why Hoshi can understand T'Pol ) Well, in those letters, Cicero tells her how much he loves her in a very romantic way. Well then, she wanted the divorce precisely because he loved her! It was incomprehensible for her. Marriage had nothing to do with love. And having a husband who used to tell you he loved you in such a direct way... Well, it was weird and unbearable.

And Trip's behavior putting up with T'Pol... well, that happens. Usually it happens with good guys. They usually end with witches who treat them as crap. The same thing happens with women: how many intelligent women you know who ended with jerks? It happens everyday.

By the way, why does everybody think T'Pol was afraid of Trip and her feelings toward him and that's the reason why she pushes him away? I always thought that was exactly her reason to act as she did. My theory was that she wanted to push him toward Cole because she presumed Amanda was the best option for him.

Pheeew... long post

[Alelou]

I can't EVER see T'Pol pushing Trip towards Amanda. She's just too viscerally jealous and possessive. In fact, I think she's jealous of ALL Trip's other interests from the beginning of the series. She knows it's stupid, and she shouldn't act on it, but she's helplessly fascinated by him from the very first argument. And the same with him.

I don't think T'Pol chooses to be unhappy. I think she goes in the direction of what gives her satisfaction and delight -- whether it's staying on Enterprise, where she's so desperately needed (echoes of Spock), or keeping Trip just engaged enough to prevent him from going with someone else while allowing her to feel like she's not completely ignoring what a good Vulcan SHOULD be doing. She only marries Koss to help her mother and she's clearly miserable about it. But when Trip refuses to keep dancing attendance after that, and when her mother dies, she finally begins to think maybe it's time she figured out how a Vulcan is really supposed to conduct her life. She really does try to move on. So does Trip.

But now they have this inconvenient mating bond thingie in the way. Lucky for us!

[Distracted]

Strangely enough (or maybe just scarily enough), I understand T'Pol's behavior, Dinah. Often I actually RECOGNIZE it as something I have done myself. (That's the scary part. )

I think your explanation for her on-again, off-again behavior regarding Trip is very reasonable. Emotions are frightening, and if you're not in sync with the rest of society regarding proper social responses (which I never seemed to be as a teen), then the world is a very scary place.

And you called my YMAM2 T'Pol emotionally immature!

Just because I can see the writers' take on T'Pol's character doesn't mean I LIKE it. Some fanfics (probably not yours but I honestly don't remember making that comment about T'Pol in your fic so I'm not sure) portray T'Pol as even more childish than the series did... sort of like a spoiled teenager rather than just a frightened one. I tend to write T'Pol a good deal more emotionally mature than the way she was portrayed on the series but scared to death by change, and my favorite fanfics are those in which she finally decides to grow up and make a DECISION ALREADY!!

[JadziaKathryn]

But now they have this inconvenient mating bond thingie in the way. Lucky for us!

To quote Bob Ross, it was a happy accident.

But I do think you're right - without the bond to force their hand (maybe more force T'Pol's hand?) they both would've moved on. And maybe wondered what could've been...

[Linda]

Oops! I wrote T'Pol as a pre-teen child who was naughty and disliked Koss trying to befriend her just because they were 'engaged'. But a child that age surely would have emotional immaturity whether Human or Vulcan, right, Distracted?

And yes, Escriba, I think T'Pol was somewhat lonely as a child. I think she was more intelligent than the average Vulcan child and actually wondered why certain Vulcan customs existed - which led to some testing of them - and some "naughtiness", LOL.

[Linda]

Oh, I like your comparing Vulcans to Romans, Escriba! And you could also compare them to the Japanese. Their clothing is very Japanese and I think that was the original cultural base that the Star Trek canon powers-that-be had in mind for the Vulcans.

[blacknblue]

I disagree that Trip failed to let her know how he felt. For example in the argument during the E2 episode. Remember how T'Pol exploded at him about the whole "experiment" being a mistake, and how she should have known that he couldn't get physical without becoming emotionally involved? (Right...) Trip accused her of getting mad because she could stand to admit that under the right circumstances she could care for him?

Then the whole conversation before they left to go to Vulcan together, when he was asking how she was planning to introduce him to her Mom?

And the crying episode in the Expanse?

Many men aren't real good at being specific at talking about our feelings, Cicero notwithstanding. Not men from Florida anyway. But Trip did everything a Florida boy could do short of painting a sign.

[Alelou]

I disagree that Trip failed to let her know how he felt. For example in the argument during the E2 episode. Remember how T'Pol exploded at him about the whole "experiment" being a mistake, and how she should have known that he couldn't get physical without becoming emotionally involved? (Right...) Trip accused her of getting mad because she could stand to admit that under the right circumstances she could care for him? / Okay, but did he say he cared for her? And didn't he earlier in that episode say, "I never said I wanted a relationship"? He continually protects himself -- quite understandably.

Then the whole conversation before they left to go to Vulcan together, when he was asking how she was planning to introduce him to her Mom? Well, he had good reason to ask, but this just shows that they haven't talked about the most basic things and don't have a clue how to define their relationship.

And the crying episode in the Expanse? That could have happened between any two very good friends. That could have happened with Malcolm. Or Archer. We're just really, really happy that it happened with her.

Many men aren't real good at being specific at talking about our feelings, Cicero notwithstanding. Not men from Florida anyway. But Trip did everything a Florida boy could do short of painting a sign.

The thing is, T'Pol needs for him to paint a sign. She doesn't know from Florida boys. She's not human. Vulcans don't date or flirt. How's she supposed to know?

[Asso]

Honestly, I don't like too much the Bond. It seems to me an expedient a little bit foolish and "not much romantic".
But, I have to admit, there's another point of sight too.
The Bond is created when Vulcans mate (T'Pol says).
Mh... A great problem, I think. So, never can Vulcans do... that thing? I mean: A Vulcan is running the risk of becoming Bonded with every people he joins.
Well! (you could say). In fact they mate for life.
Mh... yet again. Remember you Spock? And then, didn't T'Pol know that? And in this case, why seduced she Trip? Isn't it possible that she would have wanted the Bond? That in the depth of her heart she would have wanted a real "liaison"?
NAH!, You all say! T'Pol was unaware!
Okay, and so... where there's this damn Bond? But really can we believe that it might be formed with a magic trick?
And besides, please remember T'Pol's face and behaviour when Trip (as blacknblue wrote) was asking how she was planning to introduce him to her Mom?
Many things, many things happened between "Harbinger" and "Home"!
Difficult to find a better "sign"!
T'Pol is Vulcan, yes, but NOT fool! (Mh... )
Another thing.
Do you think a woman could come to you and tell you: "Is it because of me that you go away?" Do you think that woman could say these words, if she wasn't aware of your...love for her?
A little bit of courage, T'Pol!
Kir' Shara is great, but Trip...

[Alelou]

Do you think a woman could come to you and tell you: "Is it because of me that you go away?" Do you think that woman could say these words, if she wasn't aware of your...love for her?

Oh, she knows he loves her. She's just stonewalling the guy while she does her own thing until she suddenly realizes he's leaving. If he'd sucked it up and told her exactly what was going on at that point, who knows how that might have worked out? But the thing about T'Pol is that she really doesn't expect Trip, despite the evidence that he loves her, to be willing to commit to her permanently. She doesn't think humans are capable of that level of commitment, and it's not like she hasn't seen Trip move from one alien chick to another before (not to mention Natalie, Lisa... what did he admit to in Breaking the Ice? Three failed relationships?). And she's still not aware of this bond at this point. He's not Vulcan or telepathic, so she would think that is impossible with him -- until the evidence is slapping her in the white space.

[CX]

Indeed. Especially with Trip's obvious taste for flings with alien women. Hmm.

Oh please. Notice that he never initiated anything. He basically got raped without even knowing it in Unexpected, and rape is apparently funny since that's the way the episode is played, that blonde chick in Oasis had a crush on him but he was completely oblivious, and with Fishstick he seemed ready to strangle her until she kissed him, because fighting apparently stands in for foreplay in shows made by people like Brannon Braga.

Oh, she knows he loves her. She's just stonewalling the guy while she does her own thing until she suddenly realizes he's leaving. If he'd sucked it up and told her exactly what was going on at that point, who knows how that might have worked out? But the thing about T'Pol is that she really doesn't expect Trip, despite the evidence that he loves her, to be willing to commit to her permanently. She doesn't think humans are capable of that level of commitment, and it's not like she hasn't seen Trip move from one alien chick to another before (not to mention Natalie, Lisa... what did he admit to in Breaking the Ice? Three failed relationships?). And she's still not aware of this bond at this point. He's not Vulcan or telepathic, so she would think that is impossible with him -- until the evidence is slapping her in the white space.

And as much as guys apparently side with Trip on this, gals apparently will always side with T'Pol...

Come on, Trip might not have been perfect either, but he wasn't the self-destructive one, and frankly his only fault is taking so much of the abuse she dished out to him (supposedly "confused" or not) and kept going back for more. Suck it up? That was the problem! He just kept sucking it up until he finally and eventually got fed up. Every time he'd try to talk to her, she'd find some way to make him go away, until she finally gave him the "I need alone time" speech. Hell, the only reason they got back together afterwards is because he finally wouldn't let her get away with her normal evasiveness. Only to get right back on the rocks, apparently...

[Asso]

Do you think a woman could come to you and tell you: "Is it because of me that you go away?" Do you think that woman could say these words, if she wasn't aware of your...love for her?

Oh, she knows he loves her. She's just stonewalling the guy while she does her own thing until she suddenly realizes he's leaving. If he'd sucked it up and told her exactly what was going on at that point, who knows how that might have worked out? But the thing about T'Pol is that she really doesn't expect Trip, despite the evidence that he loves her, to be willing to commit to her permanently. She doesn't think humans are capable of that level of commitment, and it's not like she hasn't seen Trip move from one alien chick to another before (not to mention Natalie, Lisa... what did he admit to in Breaking the Ice? Three failed relationships?). And she's still not aware of this bond at this point. He's not Vulcan or telepathic, so she would think that is impossible with him -- until the evidence is slapping her in the white space.

A good defence.
But please remember that:

From "The Aenar"

[Sickbay]
(Trip whispers to Phlox, supposedly out of earshot of T'Pol)

TUCKER: She wants to try again. You think it's smart?
PHLOX: You know the risks. So does Commander T'Pol. Commander, she's doing her job.
TUCKER: She's going to hurt herself.
PHLOX: Take my advice. Don't interfere.
TUCKER: I can't believe I'm getting this from you now. Has everyone on this ship gone crazy?
PHLOX: Not everyone.
TUCKER: Oh, I'm crazy?
PHLOX: It's not your fault. As far as I know, there are no species in the galaxy that have mastered the art of mixing romance and vocation.
TUCKER: You're the last one that should be giving me a lecture. Vulcan neuro-pressure was your idea.
PHLOX: You were having trouble sleeping.
TUCKER: What the hell am I going to do?
PHLOX: This is the one ailment that is universally untreatable. You'll have to suffer through it.

And wasn't T'Pol who told Trip (more or less): "No time now." (For us)
And honestly, what had Trip to do with her? Had he to kneel to her feet?

Fear of joining a man for the fear he maybe won't stay with her forever?

Always... always... fear?

[blacknblue]

Do you think a woman could come to you and tell you: "Is it because of me that you go away?" Do you think that woman could say these words, if she wasn't aware of your...love for her?

Oh, she knows he loves her. She's just stonewalling the guy while she does her own thing until she suddenly realizes he's leaving. If he'd sucked it up and told her exactly what was going on at that point, who knows how that might have worked out? But the thing about T'Pol is that she really doesn't expect Trip, despite the evidence that he loves her, to be willing to commit to her permanently. She doesn't think humans are capable of that level of commitment, and it's not like she hasn't seen Trip move from one alien chick to another before (not to mention Natalie, Lisa... what did he admit to in Breaking the Ice? Three failed relationships?). And she's still not aware of this bond at this point. He's not Vulcan or telepathic, so she would think that is impossible with him -- until the evidence is slapping her in the white space.

With all due respect ma'am, that's a cop out. Move from one alien chick to another? When? Where? Who?

The girl he was with when ENT launched dumped HIM, remember? And it broke his heart. Ms. Popsicle seduced him, and she was one of those aliens who can wrap a man around their fingers using pheromones or something. The other one, the one he gave the ice cream maker to, was nothing but a friend. Maybe he felt something for her, maybe he was just being kind in a big brotherly sort of way. It was never specified. And the shiny one who lured him into playing that telepathic game with a box of pebbles is a REAL stretch. How would any Human know that was sexual? If a shiny alien man asked you to play a telepathic guessing game involving a box of pebbles, would you expect to get knocked up?

The man is in his thirties. Three relationships by the time someone is in their thirties does not equate to Don Juan, IMO. I have had more than three failed relationships, and I married in my early twenties. Besides, T'Pol is in her mid sixties. No matter how many people try to scramble and twist things to make her look like a virgin, I can't force myself to believe it. Vorik on VOY, based on his rank alone if nothing else, was too young to be in his sixties when he went into Pon Farr. Spock was not in his sixties when he went into Pon Farr. I doubt sincerely that T'Pol was a virgin. She was entirely too adept at seducing Trip for it to have been her first time. She knew exactly what she was doing. Watch the episode again and tell me if she acted like a blushing virgin when she dropped that robe, eh?

She lived and worked on Earth for years. She is not ignorant of Human marriage customs. She knows that Humans often stay married for life. She also knows that Vulcans are capable of infidelity. The woman is a third of the way through her natural lifespan, assuming that Vulcans live about 200 years. She is a grown woman. A woman who spent years as a Security operative chasing dangerous criminals. She CAN'T be that ignorant and naive or she would be DEAD.

[Asso]

I doubt sincerely that T'Pol was a virgin. She was entirely too adept at seducing Trip for it to have been her first time. She knew exactly what she was doing. Watch the episode again and tell me if she acted like a blushing virgin when she dropped that robe, eh?

Ah Ah blacknblue! Don't undervalue women!
Frankly I don't agree with you about T'Pol virginity, and not only for my personal desire.
It's said aloud in the show that she didn't go through Pon Far.
Anyway, this isn't the point, and, for the remainder, I agree totally with you.

[blacknblue]

Actually, it is not clear. It was stated that it wasn't time for her to go through Pon Farr yet. That doesn't mean that she had never gone through it before. Nor did it necessarily mean that she was a virgin, since she obviously was not in Pon Farr when she had sex with Trip.