This kind of thing blows my mind - tribes

[Elessar]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/ ... topstories

UNCONTACTED! They're trying to shoot down the helocopter with bows! This is remarkable! It's an anthropological gem! And sadly, there are fewer and fewer of them... On one hand, it would be an absolute dream to study these people, but on the other, it's like observer effect, once you're there, they're not in their natural state, so it's kinda moot. AND, kinda sad because you hear about things like, the natives of Papua New Guinea trying to built refrigerators and radio walkies out of sticks and wood because they saw American GIs in WW2 speak into magic boxes and have crates of food fall out of the sky or reach into a dark box and have cold beverages come out!

They need those cloaking suits like in Insurrection

[Entilzha]

It's quite fascinating.

[JadziaKathryn]

I'm surprised there are around 100 uncontacted tribes left, to be honest. Anyway, I sincerely hope that the illegal logging problem doesn't force them off their land.

[JadziaKathryn]

Unknown Tribe a Hoax
Well, this tribe has been known to exist for almost 100 years. However, they haven't had any contact with the outside world except the plane they were aiming arrows at. Astonishing. You'd think that there isn't anywhere people could be outside the modern world. I thought it was dumb that Andorians didn't know about the Aenar living on the same planet, but maybe, just maybe, it would be possible if there are still uncontacted tribes out there.

[Escriba]

You see? And then we question the talent of Enterprise's scriptwriters

[Asso]

[Linda]

Yeah, I too was surprised to hear that there might be 100 groups left that have not had outside contact. I am amazed that there is still that much wild area left on the planet.

You would expect them to use the bows against the airplane, because what else WOULD they use? That is the weapon they have and they are skilled with it. What they don't know is the true nature of their 'enemy' up there in the sky. Heck, would we really behave much different if "klingons" really did invade our solar system and do a fly by of earth?

Well, contact is inevitable, with these 100 groups of people. I just hope the anthropologists do it in the least painful manner and that we can get the reactions of the people recorded in their own language. They are just as human as us i.e., just as intelligent and with the same emotional makeup. It would be interesting to have a detailed record of their impressions before they change. For they will change, and quickly. People are very adaptable. Look at the technological and cultural changes we have been through in our own lifetimes - right within our own cultures. And the changes older members of our families have been through. Our great-great grandparents lived in a world where the only mechanical power was steam at best, animal and human muscle power for most of the work they did. It boggles my mind just thinking about how different the world was for my ancestors whose faces stare out of our earliest family photos from the 19th century. And those that came before photography...I don't even know what they looked like, let alone the lives that they lived. They probably would have had more in common with the people protecting their village from an airplane with bow and arrows than with me.

[justTripn]

I will say something un-politically correct. I think the "uncontacted tribes" should be contacted, not FORCED to do anything, but they should be at least invited to partake of the benefits of civilization, particularly modern medical care.

I worked for a while with Hmong refugees in Thailand, in the early 80s. The Hmong are a separtat ethnic group living on mountaintops in China, Vietnam, Loas, and Thailand. One of the drawbacks of living completely cut-off from the modern world is that they were experiencing the same childhood mortality rates as was baseline for most of human history: 50% of children never make it to their 5th birthday. They change the names of children everytime they get sick to fool the evil spirits who seem to be out to get their children. The babies wear these wild hats with pom-poms on the top, so the evil spirits looking down will just see "flowers" and not healthy children.

In a teacher training class for Hmong men teaching nutrition education, we took an informal pool. How many brothers and sisters did you have? How many survived past 5. IT WAS 50%! So again, I see a value in trying to integrate uncontacted tribes into the modern world, without pushing.

[Asso]

Exactly.

[Elessar]

I will say something un-politically correct. I think the "uncontacted tribes" should be contacted, not FORCED to do anything, but they should be at least invited to partake of the benefits of civilization, particularly modern medical care.

I worked for a while with Hmong refugees in Thailand, in the early 80s. The Hmong are a separtat ethnic group living on mountaintops in China, Vietnam, Loas, and Thailand. One of the drawbacks of living completely cut-off from the modern world is that they were experiencing the same childhood mortality rates as was baseline for most of human history: 50% of children never make it to their 5th birthday. They change the names of children everytime they get sick to fool the evil spirits who seem to be out to get their children. The babies wear these wild hats with pom-poms on the top, so the evil spirits looking down will just see "flowers" and not healthy children.

In a teacher training class for Hmong men teaching nutrition education, we took an informal pool. How many brothers and sisters did you have? How many survived past 5. IT WAS 50%! So again, I see a value in trying to integrate uncontacted tribes into the modern world, without pushing.

I say No.

I think these kinds of tribes are to us what pre-war civilizations are to the Federation, and I don't think we should be initiating contact with them even if it means improving their standard of living. You can't improve a culture's standard of living sooo revolutionarily without just completely redefining the culture. It's sad to see the negative side of 'the ignoble savage' but it's just who they are. In Star Trek they depend upon a species' independent ability to develop warp drive on their own... not contacting them is just depending on them walking or riding a drive animal far enough out to run into civilization. Although, out there, that can be a ways.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

I agree with jT here. Life is very rough on people living a primitive life like that, as for example Jared Diamond has written about. And as Thomas Hobbes said about pre-civilization man:

"...and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

[Elessar]

I agree with jT here. Life is very rough on people living a primitive life like that, as for example Jared Diamond has written about. And as Thomas Hobbes said about pre-civilization man:

"...and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

Hobbes was also the most unapologetic of imperialists. He was of the generation of anglos that did, and still, believe it's the White Man's moral imperative to lift the heathens out of darkness and into the light (literally and religiously through 'whatever means necessary' conversion). I say "White Man" in reference to Kipling's poem, White Man's Burden.

Not my favorite philosophy, obviously.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Whatever you may think about him it doesn't invalidate the essence of that quote though!

[Linda]

I don't think it is possible to keep these tribes isolated once their location is known. We can't build a fence around them and keep other people out. Somebody will get in somehow, bringing cultural contamination and diseases from all over the planet that they have no defense against. So it should be done by 'officially' and in the most humane way possible along with giving them the option of keeping whatever of their culture they want to keep. If they say no to modern medicine, that is their choice. But I think that is unlikely, if they see that half their children will no longer die before the age of 5!

I guess I am going against the ST concept of no pre-warp contact, here, LOL. But I don't think it is quite the same thing. And I don't think that ENT episode where they let a whole population die when they asked for help and Phlox had the solution and didn't give it, well, that was unhumane. So give the people the choice! Protect them from what is bad about our culture, but offer what they will accept.

[justTripn]

The Prime Directive is just something someone made up for a TV-show. Philosophically, it's suspect. As the Extistentialists said, "responsibility is the ability to respond." Saying, "I will follow the Prime Directive" doesn't change the a fact that you could have done something and you didn't and that was your choice. How about that episode where a prewarp civilization is about to die because of some planetary catastrophe and Worf's brother saves them? THAT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Of course it was frowned upon by Picard, who was trying to enforce the Prime Directive.

I'm all for the free flow of goods and ideas between cultures, AND for philanthropy. And let the chips fall where they may.