The never-ending dilemma of reviews...

[Alelou]

I think workshops are fine for people who want to do them -- but I suspect you'll be poaching your own best audience of potential reader-reviewers when you do that. And the reading experience is a lot different when you're beta'ing than when you're just reading (more work, less fun). Leaving reviews as a beta is a little weird, too. You want to be supportive, but you're the beta, so presumably you've already said everything you needed to say positive or negative, and if you didn't, that suggests you screwed up.

I have used multiple betas once or twice, but only when I was hearing something from the primary beta that felt wrong to me, or when I knew I was in a dicey situation with a story and wanted another opinion. JustTripn was a wonderful beta, but sometimes she and I just fundamentally disagreed about something.

And do you really think betas influence a story's style all that much? It's not like we actually rewrite -- we just copyedit and give feedback. I wouldn't say you can detect much Alelou at work in Putaro's work. It's very much his own, and he's good at rejecting my suggestions when they don't fit his vision.

I do think there's some advantage to working with someone from the other gender, though. If nothing else, it forces you to think through some of the choices you're making for characters in ways you might not otherwise. I know when I'm writing there's an internal chorus of male reviewers from the past that I can listen to, and predict what will outrage them (and God knows I've outraged them). It may have helped me make Trip a little more acceptably "manly" in later fics.

[Kotik]

And do you really think betas influence a story's style all that much? It's not like we actually rewrite -- we just copyedit and give feedback. I wouldn't say you can detect much Alelou at work in Putaro's work. It's very much his own, and he's good at rejecting my suggestions when they don't fit his vision.

I tend to think that there's quite a bit of your influence noticable in Putaro's story. Of course the major part of it is his style, but yours definitely influences it. I refrain from explaining it in detail, because most of the parts where I think I detected a certain influence of yours have not been published yet on TriS. I could take "Trip Of A Lifetime" as an example. That one is largely un-beta'ed or mostly only for grammar and spelling. aadarshinah usually didn't meddle much with the story. So in a sense that is pure early Kotik style and not many people like it. Later I had other beta's WG, Cogito, entAllat, Distracted (for the Slopes of Andoria chapters). Whenever I sent something to Distracted I could be sure that there was more red writing in it when it came back than my originally black-coloured draft. I tend to think that's a good thing, because I learn a lot that way. The same happened when EntAllat slated the first draft of "Dawn Of The Federation". In these cases I usually had to rewrite significant portions of the first draft and used what I lerned from it in later stories, so I tend to think that all my beta's had an influence on my style.

[putaro]

I tend to think that there's quite a bit of your influence noticable in Putaro's story. Of course the major part of it is his style, but yours definitely influences it.

Well, part of the influence is probably just that I've read all of Alelou's Enterprise stories and liked them. She actually doesn't edit that much, and although I enjoy blaming her for the angsty parts I can really only think of one instance where she recommended adding any angst. She does catch me on parts where it's not making a lot of sense and needs some more 'splaining. T'Pol is a difficult character for me to write (versus say Trip or Archer) even though she's probably my favorite character. Alelou's idea of how T'Pol thinks and acts meshes well with my own ideas and she helps me keep T'Pol "in-character" usually. She also helps me keep to a single POV though I do enjoy writing from multiple POV's in the same chapter (or paragraph). I think after I master single POV I may write in a more chaotic fashion .

As far as workshops go, I've never participated in one, but it seems like it's the kind of thing you'd want to do for maybe one chapter or a short story, not all of your writing. There is the danger of winding up with writing by committee.

[Alelou]

Yeah, what he said. It's really a pretty easy beta job (which is why I took it!). In terms of voluntary beta work (i.e. not as an admin trying desperately to make something grammatical so it can be posted), Escriba was the hardest because of non-English speaking issues. But her stories are so fabulously creative and thought-provoking it hardly matters. And in her, I don't detect any Alelou style either. She's very much her own writer. (And very missed!!!) As a beta, I'm mostly just a proofreader and someone who will say "Huh?" when needed (as well as "zzz -- cut this out" or "this doesn't sound like so-and-so"). This is why betas are useful, really. You simply get a sneak peek at what a reader might be entertained/bored/perplexed/turned off by.

[Weeble]

Reviews - They are the cake that keeps us going.
I can say I have been mildly upset at times by some, but for me it is usually an ego problem, my own ego. I can say that after many pokes to the ribs by Alelou, I have become much better at deleting silly stuff or added scenes that serve no purpose. Not perfect by any means. I mean I am an engineer by training. Have you ever tried to get a short answer out of one???
The most difficult part for me is when a reviewer asks a question or two regarding why this or that and given that I tend to write multi chapter tales, some times I am dropping hints for the future or perhaps attempting to mislead the reader so as to keep the mystery intact.
Not sure how a forum could work... I would happily interact to kick around plot bunnies or flesh them out somewhat, yet I would hate to spoil my own surprise, joy, pleasure (pick one) when I open a new tale or chapter for the first time.
Just saying....

[Kotik]

I think I should buy myself a cake As some of you might remember, my "favourite author" retracted a story on ff.net after I politely tried to tell him, not to quit his day job, because he's utterly useless at writing. Today I tried reading another one to see if that crappiness was consistent and I think my eyes are bleeding
I actually resisted commenting, because that would probably get me banned on ff.net, but god almighty, I'm sure that sort of writing qualifies as analphabetism. Ive never seen such a crap story in my life Characters totally out of such, Trip in Hyper!Superman!Trip mode and all told in a version of English that qualifies as high treason. And guess what, you got people commenting what a great story that is. Either these people accidentally commented on the wrong story or you can just bin the whole feature. *facepalm*

[putaro]

And guess what, you got people commenting what a great story that is. Either these people accidentally commented on the wrong story or you can just bin the whole feature. *facepalm*

Well, we're off to my son's violin recital to listen to him strangle a cat. We're going to clap for him and all the other kids and tell them how amazing they are. Maybe they're all his relatives logging on to comment. Or maybe he has a bunch of sock puppets.

But, you know, there's no accounting for taste and you can't control what other people like. Just as with smut, you're perfectly welcome to not read poor writing.

[Kotik]

Well, we're off to my son's violin recital to listen to him strangle a cat. We're going to clap for him and all the other kids and tell them how amazing they are. Maybe they're all his relatives logging on to comment. Or maybe he has a bunch of sock puppets.

Well wouldn't it be better to take your son aside (in private) and tell him that he doesn't quite have the knack for it? I mean he could start to believe that he's good at it and one day there won't be just relatives in the room He could be setting himself up for quite a fall

But, you know, there's no accounting for taste and you can't control what other people like. Just as with smut, you're perfectly welcome to not read poor writing.

Well needless to say that after mentally filling in the 20 missing word, I stopped reading and by that time I wasn't even halfway into the first chapter. But it took a lot of restraint not to comment and advise him to post in his native language instead of trying to do it in English. Trouble is, he claims to be American Anywho, I'll give that man a wide berth.

[putaro]

Well, we're off to my son's violin recital to listen to him strangle a cat. We're going to clap for him and all the other kids and tell them how amazing they are. Maybe they're all his relatives logging on to comment. Or maybe he has a bunch of sock puppets.

Well wouldn't it be better to take your son aside (in private) and tell him that he doesn't quite have the knack for it? I mean he could start to believe that he's good at it and one day there won't be just relatives in the room He could be setting himself up for quite a fall

Well, now that you're an uncle, Kotik, you should learn about little people who are learning things and need some nurturing, not just criticism. Standing up in the middle of a recital and yelling "You suck!" when a six-year old loses her place in her music is generally regarded as not helpful.

We tend to appreciate people who are learning by their progress, not by their absolute skill. There may come a time when they've progressed as far as they can and need to be told that they're really not very good at it. However, there's a long period when they are progressing where you have to accept that what they're doing is hard and it will take some time for them to master it.

My son has been at violin for about three years now. He's pretty good for someone who's been playing violin for three years but I certainly wouldn't ask anyone besides a relative (or a fellow parent) to listen to him. You have to be really good at violin before it's worth listening to (versus, say piano, where you can enjoy your child's rendition of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star without earplugs).

[Kotik]

Well, now that you're an uncle, Kotik, you should learn about little people who are learning things and need some nurturing, not just criticism. Standing up in the middle of a recital and yelling "You suck!" when a six-year old loses her place in her music is generally regarded as not helpful.

You must have missed the "(in private)" in my post I can be a tad direct at times, but I'm not that blunt
I must admit that I don't like it, when people make their children perform, knowing they aren't ready for that, yet. Yes, it gives them a sense of achievement, but it is a fake one. I must admit though, even taking up violin lessons is an achievement in itself. I dabbled with playing sax as a youth and I never made it to a level that would allow me to perform. Which is why I later ended up singing, now that's something I can do without embarrassing myself

[putaro]

I must admit that I don't like it, when people make their children perform, knowing they aren't ready for that, yet. Yes, it gives them a sense of achievement, but it is a fake one.

Recitals are part of the music school culture as far as I can tell. I would say there's a number of reasons for them:

1) It's something to work towards - there's a big difference between performing in front of a group (even if you know they will all clap for you) and practicing.
2) It's a way to show your progress
3) It's a way to learn how to be in front of a group
4) You get to listen to other students who are better than you and see where you should be going

Some of the more advanced students are really good and several of the music teachers at our school (including my son's violin teacher and my daughter's piano teacher) are professional musicians and they often do a short performance during the recitals.

[Kotik]

Recitals are part of the music school culture as far as I can tell. I would say there's a number of reasons for them:

Thank god our music schools didn't do that. I hated to play in front of an audience, if I didn't know I had it licked to perfection. I almost didn't do the gig a few days ago, which had me standing in as singer for a local band. Most of the stuff I knew, but "Balada Boa" is their crowd pleaser and it took me two days to get that thing right. Had I not managed it, I would've scratched the whole idea. Guess I'm not much of a risk taker in these things

Big honking Edit:

Just got a PM from someone on ff.net, who urged me to have a look at the last chapter of my "favourite authors" story - the one I abandoned reading after half a chapter yesterday. One sub-plot of it was that T'Pau attached herself to Trip, making him her en'ahr'at to make up for her substandard upbringing. Sound familiar? Right. It's straight out of "Trip of a Lifetime", right down to her rationale for doing it, and guess what - a short recherche showed that this particular author has been following my story since May 7th. Ok, that's one honking comment headed your way, buddy

[Alelou]

Ooh. That's bad. THAT sounds like plagiarism, unless it also appears elsewhere in canon or novels.

As a band parent I've suffered through recitals every school year and some instruments are much more painful to hear being learned than others (violins have GOT to be the worst). But by the end of the year in high school the orchestra was bringing me to tears (and winning some awards). It all just takes time and great teaching. Jazz band, which my son is in, is actually a lot easier. It's a choice group with easier-to-play-well music and they had some great teaching at key points, so they've been the crowd pleasers ever since middle school, but I'm thrilled that he's joining the wind ensemble too, this year, and will get to wrestle with some harder pieces and a larger ensemble. The challenge will be good for him. Maybe he'll even, I don't know, practice...

[Kotik]

Ooh. That's bad. THAT sounds like plagiarism, unless it also appears elsewhere in canon or novels.

Trust me, it does NOT appear in canon or novels. Hell, I've had people calling me names for the very idea. But it was MY idea. Surprise, Surprise, the story has disappeared. I don't have a clue what that numbnut is on about. Posting a couple of stories, half of which was plagiarized, the writing bordered on dyslexia, all just to plug that he's a "professional writer"? I don't think so. Half of the comments came from "guests", and even more intriguing (or however that is spelt like), half of his guests seemed to have the same language deficits *facepalm* Unless we've unearthed a peculiar new dialect, I'd say we're dealing with an utterly sad individual.

[putaro]

Well, that's just sad. I try to avoid covering the same story lines as other people not just because it's bad form and rude but it's also BORING. They do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but who would want to be flattered by someone whose writing is terrible?

It's not like you can't just steal plot lines from other, non-Enterprise, stories and use them and freshen things up a bit. Seems like a lot of work to plow through fan fiction to make a pastiche.