Archer - Dweeb or Hero?

[WarpGirl]

Thank you. But I don't want to give anyone the wrong idea, I have shiped for couples on other shows and hated romantic rivals. But I can only think of two instances where there was nothing wrong with the rivals, that was on SG-1 and I had been waiting for over 7 years! I don't even hate Archer because of romantic rivalry, because there isn't any. I hate the guy because I think he's a poor Captain and because I personally find him annoying. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with TnT at all.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Well, there are plenty of TnTers that hate or dislike Archer, so in that respect I can undertand why AinTers could hate Trip. Granted there are a lot of non-shippy reasons to not like Archer, but sometimes I wonder which takes precedence for some.

Myself, I really hate the concept of AinT and I don't like Archer much, but my dislike for him has a multitude of reasons. I didn't particularly care for him from early on, before TPTB began hinting at AinT (like in ANiS).

[honeybee]

I think Archer is the weak link of the series and was shown up by not only Trip, but T'Pol and some of the minor characters as well. But I thought the XIndi arc clever-ly made use of Archer's flaws, i.e. his general d***kishness, and had them serve the story. I thought the character of Archer was vastly improved in the 4th Season as well. I actually think the TnT romance would have benefitted from some time out in the open and Archer having to deal with it. I like the idea that TnT are both loyal to Archer, it's one of the things they have in common.

I've gotten a sense from most fans that Archer was a weak link of the series, though I know that some like him.

I guess the obsessive A/T crowd would hate Trip, especially since he was generally so much more popular than Archer. Over on io9, the discussion of Enterprise - which is often devoid of any shipping - basically cites Trip as the best character. And I try and look at stuff through non-shippers eyes when I am on general sites like that.

I also tend to be very Zen about other people's ships - but I'm always bewildered when they aggressively attack others. Seems silly

[WarpGirl]

OK I fully admit this will sound snobby, but I don't mean to be snobby. I'd hate Archer even if Trip and T'Pol didn't exist. I can't think of a single non-ship reason to hate Trip. None even the accent isn't annoying.

[honeybee]

Well, I'm more sanguine than you Warpgirl. I'll just say that Archer improved in the 3rd and 4th season. But from a shipper's perspective, I don't see any reason at all to hate Archer. Archer seems to have moved well-beyond his icky crush on T'Pol by the time the Xindi arc begins. The only hint of jealousy - and it is really vague - is in E2. And then later, he offers to send Trip to see older T'Pol. If he were jealous, he wouldn't have done that.

I do think there are good reasons to dislike Archer. He was a royal a** in the first two seasons. And from a writing perspective, Archer was never even close to being as interesting or charming or decent as Trip. In fact, I think many of the writers have admitted that they like writing for Trip the best. But A/T was never a threat to TnT once the Xindi arc began.

[WarpGirl]

Well in season 3 he did all sorts of nasty stuff and nobody called him on it. Then in season 4 he's God-like, he's the ultimate hero, not even Kirk got such adoration. And NOBODY else got credit, or even did there jobs. I hate the Augment Arc for the fact Malcolm got castrated. I just can't stand him. But as for romantic rival, you're right he's not. And after E2 I don't even think he dreamed of the possibility anymore. I just think he's an icky Captain.

[panyasan]

I never cared much about Archer - for me he was a leader who got way too much credit without showing why he really deserved that credit. I also see this in RL, so no suprise for me. I didn't hate him and in fact, after reading about him in many fic's and especially after writing two chapters from his POV, I gained more understanding about the man. Got a little bit of weak spot for him. I understand where he is coming from and what motivates him. He is much more agressive about getting things (much more then Trip, who is much kinder - sometimes to his own disadventage) - but there is also a lonely child inside him - a spoiled lonely child that want to get what he wants. I think Dinah's chapter of Archer in The thorn and the rose painted that beautifully. Personally I like fic's where Archers is confrontated with his attitude and hopefully grows somewhat in the process, but he will always be a little annoying for me and any hero-worshipping of him will always rub me the wrong way.

[honeybee]

At least in the 4th Season, Manny Coto wrote in some one-liners about how annoying all the credit for Archer was - especially in that Archer was somewhat broken in The Expanse. But I do still think his obsessiveness was a legitimate part of the success of the Xindi mission. The writers earned that across all those episodes.

I do think that the network did want a heroic character in Archer - the writers and SB wanted someone more complex. And it just got muddled onscreen.

However, in fics, he can provide an interesting dynamic.

[Escriba]

At least he is questioned in "Home." Granted, Erika supported him all the way, but that's also because Erika Hernández is really kind and supportive anyway.

I like "Home" because we see a troubled Archer for his fame (and how he got there), a fame that for once, was earned (yes, I know it's a victory of the Enterprise's crew, but he was the Captain.)

[WarpGirl]

But it's resolved too easily. Somone like Soval calls him on stuff like the Seleya but not 15 minutes later says "You did what you had to don't feel bad." I'm not saying Archer didn't do what he thought he had too, I don't think he's evil. It's just that he's so coddled. Everyone has to make him feel better about stuff. I hate that. It was war he should feel bad.

Picard had his time as a Borg, it nearly destroyed him. The crew gave support but the scars were always apart of him. That didn't happen with Archer, he's a broken wreck during season 3 and 4 episodes into season 4 he's hunky-dory and EVERYONE adores him. I'm sorry but it's like panyasan said he's like a little boy. Not a man age 45-49. Even when he explained how he got Porthos he talked like he was a boy getting a dog from his girlfriend's mom. Um Porthors might have been 3-4 at the most. He was not a boy, he was a MAN. But he didn't act like a fully developed mature man. That galled me.

[Escriba]

But it's resolved too easily. Somone like Soval calls him on stuff like the Seleya but not 15 minutes later says "You did what you had to don't feel bad."

Truth be told it was three days later and it was T'Pol the one who convinced Soval.

I'm not saying he isn't childish or flawed, which he is, but everyone in that ship was. Perhaps Archer is more criticized because his flaws hinder him to be precisely a better captain. Although it doesn't help that everyone tells him they admire him. I mean, controlling your ego must be really hard when everybody adores you. And that's not even his fault.

When I'm pissed of with his character, however, I always watch "Observer Effect" and "Terra Prime" to reconcile with him

[WarpGirl]

OK I can't forgive Season 4 Archer for this in Bable One...

TUCKER: You know, I like these people more than I thought I would. They don't hold anything back. It's refreshing, speaking your mind for a change.
ARCHER: You don't feel free to speak your mind with the rest of us?
TUCKER: No, you know what I mean.
ARCHER: No. Maybe you'd like to explain it to me. Why don't you change your uniform before you stink up the place.
TUCKER: Ah, practicing your Tellarite. I get it. (leaves, hoping he really does get it)
ARCHER: When in Rome.

OK what the HECK is that! If it was teasing I saw the face and heard the tone of voice and it did not sound like the ususal teasing, it was badly done. And another thing the entire room was stifling hot and FULL of people. Trip stinks? I don't think so. He's third-in-command he has every right to be at the diplomatic function, the engines were fine, and they weren't under attack yet. If it was teasing Trip would not have left.

[honeybee]

The writing for Archer was inconsistent, there's no doubt. But I like him in "Observer Effect" and "Terra Prime", too. I think they had, too late, finally nailed who he should be.

Again, I do think that early on, Archer was "propped" by the writers - with people admiring him when we saw him screwing up all the time. And propping characters is always a bad idea. You tend to defend characters when they are put into a bind or are criticized. Having seen "Impulse" - I was with Archer when he said that he had no choice but to destroy the ship and the crew was doomed. Soval's point is well-taken, but he wasn't there.

I always felt Hoshi's defense of Archer in Shockwave Part 1 was classic propping - since Archer had made a complete mess of many of the missions in the first season, it's tough to see where her loyalty is coming from. If it had been more like, "he's done the best he could and has learned from all his mistakes" - I would have been happier. But she was a little blind in her support for him.

I actually liked the idea that Archer made mistakes in the first season, but I don't think he really proved to be a good leader until the third - again, when his stubbornness and obsessiveness worked in his favor.

[Escriba]

OK what the HECK is that! If it was teasing I saw the face and heard the tone of voice and it did not sound like the ususal teasing, it was badly done.

Maybe because he was teasing Trip as he was really mad? Just like irony is saying something when what you really mean is the opposite?

Is his teasing extreme? Yes. Of poor taste? Possibly. But he was obviously teasing. He was acting like he was mad and made Trip doubt.

[Escriba]

I always felt Hoshi's defense of Archer in Shockwave Part 1 was classic propping - since Archer had made a complete mess of many of the missions in the first season, it's tough to see where her loyalty is coming from. If it had been more like, "he's done the best he could and has learned from all his mistakes" - I would have been happier. But she was a little blind in her support for him.

Well, that can give interesting ideas to write. Imagine that people's praises aren't just "propping", imagine that people usually tell Archer how wonderful he is. That makes his situation intriguing, especially when he discovers he has failed just as everybody else. Usually constant flattering and praise from childhood turns people into "unbalanced persons", to say the least. Caligula someone?

So the fact that he isn't absolutely mad it's interesting in itself.