Archer as Captain

[WarpGirl]

But they were taught War. Starfleet wasn't. And that's the point. Archer is unqualified. Even Malcolm says so. It's not so implausible to set up a joint operation. In fact it would have made more sense for Hayes to be Archer's 2IC than T'Pol. She still could have gone along.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Star Trek:
Picard: "Arm photon torpedoes!"
Riker: "Captain! Are you sure that's wise?"
Troi: "Captain! I'm picking up conflicting feelings about this! And, it appears that you're a 'fraidy cat."
Wesley: "Captain, I'm just an annoying punk, but I thought I should say something."
Worf: "Captain, can I push the button? This is giving me a big Klingon warrior chubby."
Giordi: "Captain, I think we should reverse the polarity on them first."
Picard: "I'm so confused. I'm going to go to my stateroom and look pensive."

It's funny because it's true!

[Silverbullet]

The must hve knowen about Klingons, Andorians in addition to Vulcans. the Boomers would have met them if no one else and told Starfleet about what they had learned. Archer was not suprised by Shran or th eKlingons when he returned the one to Kronos.

RE some who is moved out of a position gets a little put out. think that Trip was supposed tobe FO in addition to Chief Engineer and he waas booted out and replaced by T'Pol but he didn't seem to mind.

Sweden hsn't had a war for some centures but they maintain an Army. Switzerland does too although they haven't fought since the middle ages. So it is not beyond the possibility that Earth might keep a small standing military for defense purposes. Again, they are sending a Starship out in to deep space where Earth's knowledge is limited at best. Why not have MAACOs. That doesn't mean Earth is going to have another conflict.

[aadarshinah]

Just 'cause they have MACO's doesn't make them knolwedgable about war. I mean, I imagine there's a huge gulf between being trained to fight a war and actually fighting one. I mean, I've read The Art of War and History of Sea Power and half a dozen other "war manuals" and have second-hand knolwedge from my dad about war, but that doesn't mean that, even if I was trained for it, that I nessicarily know a thing about actual war. Admittedly, the MACOs may be better equipted for a war than the Enterprise crew, but still, nothing prepares you for war like war.

On an interesting side note, Switzerland may be all peaceful now, but, back in Roman times, the tribes in the area were blood thirsty warriors. Really. Ceaser complains about them all the time in De Bello Gallae.

[WarpGirl]

But that knowledge is important. Without it you're not qualified to even think of fighting an enemy. Yes being in an actual war is the only thing that can give you the knowledge of the "horrors of war" and I don't deny the MACO's didn't have that. But they learned how to fight a war, because they were taught too. Starfleet Officers were not. So not only did they have no knowledge of the "horrors" of what they would be asked to do. They also didn't have the technical skills to plan sound stratagy.

For cryin out loud the MACO's had to teach all the Starfleet personel basic fighting skills. Archer wasn't qualified to lead the mission without relying on information. And I'll bet he did a lot of reading on the subject. War tactics are pretty much universal. At least in ST.

[Alelou]

And, on that note, was Trip/T'Pol/Reed's mutiny in "Hatchery" ever mentioned again (beyond that breif quip in "North Star")?

??? "North Star" aired well before "Hatchery."

And I would also think, judging from "Hatchery," that Archer would have gotten an enthusiastic "damn straight!" if he consulted Hayes on the matter of the warp coil. Don't forget that Hayes had pushed to silence that Xindi sloth dude who helped them with the kemocite.

I agree with jT. Archer didn't suddenly change -- Star Trek did. But Star Trek needed that change, I think. "Damage" elevated Trek at least briefly into something far more gritty and realistic than it had been before. As a Trekkie I still wanted it to retain its optimistic humanity, but I thought it was refreshing to see a painful acknowledgment that war is never pretty, even when you're the good guys.

[WarpGirl]

TNG did that with the Borg Wars. However, I think ENT wouldn't commit one way or the other. And that is very frustrating. You have an episode like Hatchery, and while I applauded Archer's alien baby influenced ideals felt he was completely wrong. And then you have Damage where Archer becomes the very pirate he tortured in Anomaly. Now I understand the value of progession in a storyline. But it didn't feel progressive, it felt schisophrenic. Added to that they spent 3 1/2 seasons contrasting Starfleet with the actual military, and I was left feeling frustrated and confused. I'm like... Please in the name of all that is sane, make up your minds and tell the story without jumping around!

[honeybee]

As a Trekkie I still wanted it to retain its optimistic humanity, but I thought it was refreshing to see a painful acknowledgment that war is never pretty, even when you're the good guys.

Yes. Every iteration of Trek reflected the times - and ENT did that in its third season. I do think DS9 explored these themes during the Dominion War, but having humans deal with such a profound threat without the backup of the Federation and other allies was evocative. Enterprise pushed it as about as far as I wanted to see it go - the BSG reboot proved too nihilistic for my taste. Although, someone recommend to me that I watch it thinking the Cylons are the good guys and its easier that way.

Archer didn't have the training, resources or historical perspective of subsequent captains. If Picard had needed a warp coil in the middle of highly charged situation, there would have been a nearby ally to help him get one. Or, he could have promised the aliens immediate rescue as well as payment. Archer hasn't the luxury of power or influence.

[WarpGirl]

I have to wonder if 9/11 hadn't happened if we would have even had the Suilban and the Xindi. And while I think that ST tried to keep itself up with the times, they didn't have a set direction. In all the other Treks when they took a controversial issue on they had a set direction, even if there was no clear cut moral high road to take. With ENT taking on a world after 9/11 I don't think they thought about where they wanted to end up. You can still have a moral delema and keep things consistent. But everything was all over the map constantly.

And I'm gonna say it... Poor Scott Bakula if I were him I would have been nervous every time I got my script. He never knew which incarnation his character would take from episode to episode.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Sweden hsn't had a war for some centures but they maintain an Army.

Not much left of that now, I'm afraid. I'll be sure to remind the Minister of Defence of that when I meet him on Sunday...

[Silverbullet]

KTR, weren't you a Sergeant in the Swedish Army at one tine?

[aadarshinah]

And, on that note, was Trip/T'Pol/Reed's mutiny in "Hatchery" ever mentioned again (beyond that breif quip in "North Star")?

??? "North Star" aired well before "Hatchery."

Sorry, this is what I get for staying up late. I'm thinking about a quip about "North Star" that took place in "Hatchery," or maybe a fanfic talking about those too events... My brain's not functioning.

Though, as far as the nihilism goes, there wasn't a Federation yet, so no shiny perfect place with no wars, famine, disease, hunger, ect ect ect. They were still trying to make those things happen....

And I'm not even sure that makes sense as a sentance. I think its a sign I need sleep...

[WarpGirl]

Sweden hsn't had a war for some centures but they maintain an Army.

Not much left of that now, I'm afraid. I'll be sure to remind the Minister of Defence of that when I meet him on Sunday...

Ladies and Gents the man leads a life of adventure. Hey have you ever met that hottie Prince of yours over there?

So sorry had too! Okay OT: No the Federation didn't exist but in <cough> Rogue Planet <cough> Acher pretty much says they've irradicated all that stuff on Earth. But come on after WW3 and the Eugenics Wars, wouldn't it make sense to make sure the man who you order to save humanity, and (doesn't have any military training) to have military advisers like any other leader of a country. Because essentially Enterprise is a mobile country of earth.

[Thot]

But they were taught War. Starfleet wasn't. And that's the point. Archer is unqualified. Even Malcolm says so. It's not so implausible to set up a joint operation. In fact it would have made more sense for Hayes to be Archer's 2IC than T'Pol. She still could have gone along.

Exactly! I'm demoting the person with the most experience in space travelling, diplomacy and science on a space ship, because there's a high decorated graduate from West Point, who probably has never left the Sol system. *No Ma'ma*

I could understand if they'd put Hayes over Malcolm in the chain of command since the conflict with the Xindi most likely should have included on surface battles, where the MACO probably are more fit in than ship security of Enterprise.

The must hve knowen about Klingons, Andorians in addition to Vulcans. the Boomers would have met them if no one else and told Starfleet about what they had learned. Archer was not suprised by Shran or th eKlingons when he returned the one to Kronos.

Well the episodes tell differently (for example 'The Andorian Incident'); the underlined pieces should illustrate this:

...
TUCKER: Now these guys are agitated.
T'POL: They're Andorians, Captain. They're known for their suspicious and volatile nature.
ARCHER: Andorians?
T'POL: Yes, sir.
VULCAN: Our two species are from neighbouring systems. We've been in conflict for many years.

HOSHI: I've lost the signal.
REED: Try T'Pol or Commander Tucker.
(in the monastery, Shran smashes each communicator that chirps)
HOSHI: No response.
REED: Have the launch bay put shuttlepod two on standby.
TRAVIS: You heard what he said. If we try to send more people.
REED: I don't take orders from a comm. voice, Ensign. Not unless that voice belongs to the Captain. Take a look at the Vulcan database. See if it has anything on these Andorians.
HOSHI: Aye, sir.

Once again you can say it's quite unlikely that Earth doesn't know about an enemy of the Vulcans if they are allies for decades already, but on the other hand it could illustrate once again how patronizing the VHC acts towards Humans, what would easily fit into the Romulans attempts to neutralize any Humans policy.

Sweden hsn't had a war for some centures but they maintain an Army. Switzerland does too although they haven't fought since the middle ages. So it is not beyond the possibility that Earth might keep a small standing military for defense purposes. Again, they are sending a Starship out in to deep space where Earth's knowledge is limited at best. Why not have MAACOs. That doesn't mean Earth is going to have another conflict.

That isn't the point: These armies today have at least some places where can get any nonsimulated action/experience as intervention/peace forces in conflict areas. But in Enterprise's there are no places like Dafur, Somalia and Libanon or if they exist it would completely wreck the basics of Earth's society like it is protrayed in the episodes before.

I wouldn't be surprised that the MACOs were actually facing complains by many people that they have become superflous, since there's no war on Earth anymore and the Xindi conflict actually gave them a new basis/justification.

On an interesting side note, Switzerland may be all peaceful now, but, back in Roman times, the tribes in the area were blood thirsty warriors. Really. Ceaser complains about them all the time in De Bello Gallae.

In the middleages Switzerland was known for their mercenaries through whole Europe.

But they learned how to fight a war, because they were taught too. Starfleet Officers were not. So not only did they have no knowledge of the "horrors" of what they would be asked to do. They also didn't have the technical skills to plan sound stratagy.

And that's the thing, where I think we are totally missing the point: Are they trained to fight against other species? Are they trained to fight in space?

Concerning these questions just look at this dailogue in the episode 'Anomaly':

(Archer, Reed and some MACO's are getting into EV suits)
ARCHER: Have you spent much time in gravity boots, Corporal?
MCKENZIE: I did a six week tour on Jupiter Station. The grav-plating went down a few times.
KEMPER: Only in simulation, sir.
HAWKINS: Same here, Captain.
ARCHER: This is an alien ship we're boarding. We could run into magnetic variances. Watch your step.
ALL: Yes, sir.
ARCHER: We're looking for anything that could tell us what happened to them.
...

The area the MACOs are operating in is absolutely alien to them, from a different planet if you can forgive me the pun.

Let's just compare the area and levels of experience between Enterprise's crew and the MACO
Enterprise: two years of travelling through space and meeting other species + a few hand to hand altercations with Suliban, Klingons and Andorians + space battles with Suliban, Klingons, Mazarits and some other guys.
MACO: travelling through space and meeting other species? practially zero + Simulated trainings on Earth + !perhaps! SWAT like operations

I don't want to play down the vital input and skills the MACOs can provide. But looking at the whole bunch of requirements this mission into the Expanse needs (experience in space travelling, handling foreign species, space anomalies etc.) the MACOs don't have the slightest idea about anything for the exception of hand-to-hand fights and on surface assaults.

Therefore I would have appreciated if in at least episode the MACo were given some training in essencial areas by the Starfleet personal (zero gravity walking for example)

But come on after WW3 and the Eugenics Wars, wouldn't it make sense to make sure the man who you order to save humanity, and (doesn't have any military training) to have military advisers like any other leader of a country. Because essentially Enterprise is a mobile country of earth.

Before the Xindi conflict? Very unlikely since WW3 and the Eugenics Wars are exactly the things humanity wants to get away from. So people could easily look at it as a relics from archaic times. For sure naiive but not surprising if you consider the social developement.
After the Xindi attack? Isn't this what Archer did?

[WarpGirl]

Exactly! I'm demoting the person with the most experience in space travelling, diplomacy and science on a space ship, because there's a high decorated graduate from West Point, who probably has never left the Sol system. *No Ma'ma*

I think you meant ma'am and not mama... But in any case I'm a miss, I cannot bear the thought of being ma'am yet. Give me a few more years please. OK I don't usually agree with SB about T'Pol's position on Enterprise, in seasons 1, 2, and 4, I think it's perfectly fine that she's 2IC. But in season 3 she technically is a private Vulcan citizen. Therefore she cannot be *demoted* T'Pol could still have functioned as the Chief Science Officer and advisor about space and diplomacy, (not the Archer ever listened to the diplomatic advice) and Hayes could have helped run all the combat issues.

Also a Marine Major outranks a Lt. so in actuality Malcolm should have been under Hayes all along! That part really ticked me off when they got it wrong. Especially because Enterprise was now "officially" a cobat military vessel.

Before the Xindi conflict? Very unlikely since WW3 and the Eugenics Wars are exactly the things humanity wants to get away from. So people could easily look at it as a relics from archaic times. For sure naiive but not surprising if you consider the social developement.

I really don't see how this matters at all... People still study and learn from ancient battles in history and adapt the relevant tactics to modern warfare. Ramses The Great's battle with the Hittites comes to mind. As I said before War tactics are pretty much universal. Hayes knows them, Archer is sketchy at best.