Archer as Captain

[honeybee]

I mean when your civilization and 10 Billion (give or take) lives are at stake, it's probably easy to develop a "if you're not for us, your against us" attitude - and start thinking of the people who are nice but won't give you the one thing you need to save your planet as an enemy- especially if you're not making the call yourself, like Trip. In fact, it's to Archer's credit that he doesn't seem to see it that way.

[WarpGirl]

Thank you! I've never actually had anyone else agree that Trip was in the wrong, too. I hold Archer more responsible because he's the captain, but I also think Trip bears a lot of guilt, too, since he's the one who actually gets in there and steals it.

You're right, WarpGirl: Trip is out of character there. I mean, I realize that they have to do it to stop the attack and Trip has the added motivation of avenging his sister, but these were innocent aliens, not the Xindi. I really think he would have at least questioned the order. I'm not surprised that he told Archer he did the right thing after the fact, though. I liked that scene between them. It was almost like the old days, back before "Cogenitor." Trip knew Archer was feeling terribly guilty, but he also knew they had done what they had to do, so he provides some comfort to his friend. I think it would make a nice scene addition, though, if we saw Trip confiding to T'Pol some time later, after that scene, that he felt sick about what he had done.

No problem Brandyjane!

Right from The Xindi/Expanse episodes, it's clear that Trip's moral lenses have been changed. He's the one who makes Archer promise they are going after the Xindi hard. In Twilight (after Earth is destroyed), he's got no problem blowing Xindi out the airlock. Trip, fortunately, often has T'Pol there to actually listen to him and talk through his feelings. By Damage, they're not speaking much anymore - and so he's got no one to talk him down. He's always admired Archer, and I think Trip - as we saw in Cogenitor - would be willing to take risks/do damage for a cause he believes is right. To him, saving the Earth is the cause. Later, in Season 4, he's willing to stand up to Archer and even early on when he suggests to Archer that they reinstate movie night, it indicates that's Trip is not a blind follower of Archer. However, I can totally buy that if Archer gave Trip a chance to go outlaw in the cause of saving Earth - and not kill or torture in the process - Trip would go along with it. Twilight Trip, after all, is willing to execute Xindi without trial in a very painful way. RU Trip hasn't been pressed that hard, but there's an outlaw streak there - one that I think normally Archer has to keep in check, but unleashes in this case.

Honeybee respectfully, I think that's a gross oversimplification. Trip had never ever advocated hurting innocent people, and I doubt admiration for Archer would change that. Yes he wanted to get Xindi, but that's just it, he wanted Xindi. Plus you have to remember he was repressing guilt, and grief for Lizzy that traumatized him pretty good. So I would say it isn't so much his moral compass that changed, so much as grief was fueling his emotions.

Could Trip have ordered and done those things himself? Yes I have and will explore this aspect of his personality in my own work. However he did have T'Pol for months helping him not to to drown in that obsession and hate. Even with the relationship troubles with T'Pol he kept his head above the murky waters.

One of the mistakes Archer made was isolating himself so much from the crew. It fed his own depression and rage, and he often made decisions while consumed by those emotions.

honeybee wrote:
However, let's look at this from the opposite end - would you maroon yourself for three years, at risk but not in immediate danger, in order to save 10 billion strangers and their entire civilization? I think I would. Now, I agree that its morally questionable to force these aliens to give up their warp core - but if I were them I would have given the Warp Core or sought another solution if I could.

They had no proof that Archer was telling them the truth. If Archer had sat the man down offered him conclusive proof, and came up with a reasonable diplomatic exchange maybe they would have. But, Archer didn't Try.

[Alelou]

I thought they did a fairly nice job of showing Malcolm and Trip and Travis exchanging uncomfortable glances, reacting with concern and discomfort to that command, but carrying it out nonetheless. Similarly, they had T'Pol come around after protesting strongly at first, though I suspect if it hadn't been for the Trellium-D she might have fought a little harder. I think they knew they really had no other option and that they were actually in a somewhat luxurious position only having to carry out the orders, not give them. Malcolm put up far more of a fight over the airlock thing and, later, when a hyped-up Archer wants to attack some other ship that posed no threat (was that in "Bound"?).

It's also worth noting that they had responded to the Illyrian's distress call by helping them, and the ship had already left when they went back after it. (It's actually a little peculiar, if the other ship indeed had warp capability, that they were able to catch up with it.)

I think it's unreasonable to expect the aliens to maroon themselves in such dangerous space for three years to help a distant civilization they've never met until that day. Archer could not have responsibly agreed to the do that either. Both captains were doing their jobs.

[Silverbullet]

Perhaps since the Aliens didn't leave right away they may have been considering that possibility. Archer need was so great that they might give up thier Warp coil with the agreement from Archer to send help to them as soon as he could. That way they might not think they would suffer too much. When Archer invades and steals the coil he may have cut off that option before he could be offered by the alien Captain.

[honeybee]

I got the sense that the alien Captain was firm in his decision, trying to do right by his own people. He shuts Archer down. We only got one conversation (it's a pretty dense episode) and then things move forward pretty quickly.

Although I think I would certainly discuss helping Archer with my crew if I were the Captain and give it more consideration, it doesn't seem like he is considering helping Archer. As Alelou says, they are men with two different and contradictory goals. Archer has very little time - and has to make this decision quickly. We can assume the alien ship has decided not to go to warp yet given Enterprise did catch up to them (nice observation, Alelou), but they could go to warp at anytime. So, Archer has to pounce.

[Aquarius]

Something occurred to me on the way home from work today...

Even those aliens who got mugged for their warp coil benefited from Archer's actions. The sphere builders, who the Xindi served, were a menace to *everyone*. But nobody else was doing anything about it.

So yeah. If I have to rip something valuable to you out of your hands in order to use it to go beat down a mugger or a killer who is a menace to everyone, I'm gonna do it. I might have my own family or my own neighborhood at heart when I do it...but if *your* family or block benefits because of what I did, then wasn't it kind of worth it?

Just sayin'.

[honeybee]

Right! That's a good point, and by Damage - the crew has realized that the Sphere Builders are a threat to everyone in the whole galaxy. Perhaps Archer should have mentioned that to the Captain - but then again - Archer's been met with skepticism by his allies before. Or maybe Archer just didn't think, in the heat of the moment, to make that argument.

[aadarshinah]

So yeah. If I have to rip something valuable to you out of your hands in order to use it to go beat down a mugger or a killer who is a menace to everyone, I'm gonna do it. I might have my own family or my own neighborhood at heart when I do it...but if *your* family or block benefits because of what I did, then wasn't it kind of worth it?

Yes, but the aliens had no way of knowing this. Hindsight is 20/20 ...

[Aquarius]

And you wouldn't, either, if you were holding something I could use to go after a Very Bad Guy, and I grabbed it and ran. Hopefully I could tell you after the fact. But if I'm on a time budget--if he's getting away Right This Minute--nah. I'm not going to sit there and debate it with you while people are about to get hurt.

[justTripn]

I was just warning my foreign exchange student that homeless people will walk up to you and tell you a sob story about needing money for the bus, then when they get the money they hurry away in the opposite direction of the bus so they can ask the next person for money for the bus. So don't give them money. Like a day after I told her that, someone came up and begged for money with just that story. No, the other captain should not give them the warp coil.

In another strange incident, while on a trip, a kid walked up to me at a gas station and explained he was stranded an hour from home because of a flat tire and he wanted me to give him my SPARE TIRE. I think he was even offering me a small amount of money for it. But of course I was also on a trip and needed my spare tire. I asked, if you are an hour from home, don't you have some friends who can come and help you? He said no. Meanwhile, my son said there was a carfull of other kids circling and talking with him, as if the carfull of kids knew him and had put him up to it. But his tire really was flat. I left without giving him a tire, and wondering if I'd done the right or wrong thing.

[honeybee]

I'd rather have someone hate me and resent me rather than see the entire galaxy swallowed up by a bunch of evil, inter dimensional squatters. Those aliens wouldn't even have the luxury of hindsight or hate or resentment or a big, fat moral high horse - if Archer & Co hadn't stopped the Sphere Builders from swallowing up their space. Heck, it's possible that people in the Expanse would never know that the destruction of the spheres caused the anomalies to go away and saved all of their lives. One thing that is certain, Archer isn't doing any of this for the credit or the glory.

[Silverbullet]

Archer was in a "Damned if you do" and "Damned if you don't" situation. He had to have a Warp coil. Trip could not pull a Rabbit out of the hat this time. No other Warp coil was available. So, the Alien's Warp Coil was to be taken. No other option.

He knew it was bad. T'Pol told him that he had said he did not want to lose his humanity but by doing this he would be and that once he took this step it would be esier to do the next time. Archer admitted this but said he had to do it and no more argument.

No matter that the others may have looked at him with accusation in thier faces he was the one who had to make these decisions. No one else. Enterpriise was not a democracy where verything is voted on. It was amilitary ship (sorry if I keep repeating this but it is important because it points up that it is Archer as commander has the ultimate decision and the ultimate responsibilty.) If the mission fails he gets the blame and if it succeds he gets the credit. that is the way it is.

[Aquarius]

Money for the bus and "Give me that, he's about to go kill my family!" are universes apart. Sorry.

And...shame on anyone who says "Sorry, can't help you" if someone tells them their family is about to be killed.

[honeybee]

He knew it was bad. T'Pol told him that he had said he did not want to lose his humanity but by doing this he would be and that once he took this step it would be easier to do the next time. Archer admitted this but said he had to do it and no more argument.

Absolutely. And whether or not Enterprise was always a military ship - I agree with you that in the Expanse it functioned as one. In the argument with T'Pol and during the coda to the episode where Trip says to Archer he did the right thing - Archer seems cognizant of the line he's crossing and expresses doubts about his action. He's not comfortable or smug or even in too much denial. The scenes are short, but he expresses remorse, guilt and doubt.

And the scale of this matter is far beyond the giving up of a material thing or even the saving of an individual's family - this is a massive, almost incomprehensible genocide - not just of humanity but of the galaxy. The stress Archer must have been under boggles the mind. Perhaps he just had to focus on Earth because his brain couldn't even wrap around the rest.

[Aquarius]

Right. I just thought that more people could relate to the concept of being really, really annoyed to find out they don't have a home to come back to because some maniac burned it down with their family still in it...versus having to save a whole planet and not having a home to go back to that way.

Oh, and SB--I'm right there with ya.