Archer as Captain

[Aquarius]

What, exactly, could Archer have done to stop the Xindi without a warp drive? Just curious.

[Silverbullet]

Archer had to meet Degra in three days. His chief Engineer told him they needed a new Warp Coil (why in Hell they didn't carry a spare I don't know because the one they highjacked wasn't that big) The aliens had one. they would not willingly give it up. Archer HAD to meet Degra period. He had a chance to change some xindi minds and perhaps ward off the attack on Earth. Trip might have been able to manufacture a new warp goil given time but time was not a commodity they had. So, steal the Warp Coil, leave as much food and some TD to trade for more food and hope that the A;liens could make it home on Impulse power before food and TD ran out. I would hope I had the B... to make that choice because it was critical to saving Earth.

Mistakes are always made in a desperate situation and often in military situations. Goes with the territory. A good Commander has to be ready to make decisions like that. Often sending his subordinates to almost certain death in order to accomplish a mission. That is why it is so lonely at t he top. You cannot get too close to people you might have to condemn to death.

Archers decision was the correct one. His morality was Save Earth and eight billion people.

[justTripn]

OK, if you do the right thing or the wrong thing, how much does it matter how you feel about it later? If you kill a bunch of people--either because the end justifies the means or just because you are evil--then later work yourself up into a state of feeling sorry, just so you can be forgiven, does it matter? How does it help anybody? The people are still dead.

Maybe the best one can do is admit to what was done, attempt restitution, and resolve never to do it again (putting aside wartime no win situations).

Conversely, on House, does it matter if a doctor doesn't care about the patient's feelings and can't even remember their names, if he cures them?

Now I feel inspired to finish "Accused" Nothing like being really busy, too busy to write, to inspire the desire to write.

[Silverbullet]

JT, to quote someone, YOWZA

[WarpGirl]

What, exactly, could Archer have done to stop the Xindi without a warp drive? Just curious.

Nobody is saying that he didn't have to take action, and nobody is saying that it was possible to do things differently. The point of the matter is that just because he had to do it, does not make it right. Attacking non-combatants is immoral period. War is immoral! What Archer did was immoral. And the problem with his character is that he kept trying to find ways to call it morally right.

jT this is only my opinion but I would say it matters because without the feelings there is no motive to change. To try and work for other ways. Everything just stays status quo and inevitably more people die the next time something happens.

[aadarshinah]

To quote another, “He who fights monsters should see to it that he does not become a monster. And when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back into you."

And I must agree with WG. Stealing the warp coils may have been the best of all possible solutions (to quote Leibniz now), but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have looked for other options first. Okay, yes, they asked if they could buy it - but I didn't see him asking how long it would take to fabricate one, or to buy the parts needed to do so, or whatnot - but his second idea is to steal it.

Maybe the best one can do is admit to what was done, attempt restitution, and resolve never to do it again (putting aside wartime no win situations).

Perhaps you're right, but, again, I see far too little admittance or restitution from Archer to think he's really learned anything.

[WarpGirl]

My faith in my own sanity is restored, I was beginning to think I missed something in the episode. And I paid really close attention to that one.

[Aquarius]

What, exactly, could Archer have done to stop the Xindi without a warp drive? Just curious.

Nobody is saying that he didn't have to take action, and nobody is saying that it was possible to do things differently. The point of the matter is that just because he had to do it, does not make it right. Attacking non-combatants is immoral period. War is immoral! What Archer did was immoral. And the problem with his character is that he kept trying to find ways to call it morally right.

jT this is only my opinion but I would say it matters because without the feelings there is no motive to change. To try and work for other ways. Everything just stays status quo and inevitably more people die the next time something happens.

"Right" is in the eye of the beholder. For Archer, "right" was saving Earth by any means necessary. "Right" was trying to save millions at the expense of a handful.

So what, exactly, are all these other options you said he had?

[WarpGirl]

"Right" is in the eye of the beholder.

No not always and attacking non-combatants is a war crime especially when they are not the people you are fighting.

So what, exactly, are all these other options you said he had?

OK I'll say it again... He may not have had other options. But he also did not look for them!

BEGGING WOULD HAVE BEEN AN OPTION!

[Silverbullet]

Where Archer fell down moraly was not trying to find out what happened to those he has stranded or tried to send help to them the first chance he got. He simply forgot them. That is immoral. It can be excused that he stole the Coil because not other quick option was not available. Trip may have been able to manufacture one but that would take time and there was no guarantee he could canabalize enough from his dstroyed Coil to help in the manufacture. Or if he had enough on hand to do the job. (again, why the ship was not carrying spare parts for something as important as the coil is beyond me) Archer did not have the luxery of time to wiegh different options. Mostly because other options would consume time he didn't have.

[Aquarius]

Sorry, but it was pretty much a no-brainer that he was out of options, so I'm not exactly sure why you would have his time (and the viewers',for that matter, since we all know TV stories have to be time-compressed) looking for something that we all know isn't there. And if I recall, he did ask, even plead to a point. They said no. What's left?

[aadarshinah]

Okay, here's the key points of "Damages":

TUCKER: The primary warp coil's fried. It has to be rebuilt from scratch.
T'POL: How long?
TUCKER: A couple of weeks, if we had the parts. We don't. As it stands now, warp drive's out of the question.
T'POL: Impulse?
TUCKER: I'll have to inspect the hull around the exhaust manifolds, see the damage first-hand.
T'POL: Make it a priority.
TUCKER: We've had a lot of injuries down here. It could speed things up if you assign me some extra help. (another bang makes a nervous T'Pol jump out of her skin)

A little later...

ILLYRIAN: Given the condition of my vessel, I don't know what we can offer you.
ARCHER: Our warp engine is badly damaged.
ILLYRIAN: We could probably spare a few plasma injectors, maybe some antimatter.
ARCHER: I was thinking more along the lines of a warp coil.
ILLYRIAN: I'm afraid that's one thing we can't spare.
ARCHER: Maybe we can make it worth your while. We have certain technology that you'd probably find useful.
ILLYRIAN: Without a warp coil, the journey back to our system would take three years. We're not equipped for a voyage of that length.
ARCHER: The Xindi have already wiped out seven million of my people. Now they're building a weapon to destroy our entire world. I have to stop them. Without warp drive, I won't succeed.
ILLYRIAN: I sympathise, Captain. I will help you in any other way, but I won't jeopardize the lives of my crew. I'm sorry.

And after that...

ARCHER: Put together an armed boarding party.
REED: Who are we boarding, sir?
ARCHER: The alien ship we docked with.
REED: I don't understand.
ARCHER: We need their warp coil. They won't give it to us, so we're going to have to take it.
REED: Captain.
ARCHER: Get your men together!

Okay, so I was a little wrong, they knew they couldn't build one in time, but there's a long distance between "attempt to trade" and "steal". While there may not have been any other options, I'd have been happy with a breif scene say between Archer and T'Pol where one is brainstorming things like "How close is the nearest trading post we know of?" or "Could we cobble together something based off a conviently located ship disabled by anomolies?" or "If we assigned engineering crews day and night, would it still take weeks to build a new one?" and the other shooting them down.

No not always and attacking non-combatants is a war crime especially when they are not the people you are fighting.

A war crime is, as classified by the Nuremberg Principles, Article VI, is:

(a) Crimes against peace:
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).
(b) War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.
(c) Crimes against humanity:
Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime."

The emphisis is my own.... Anyway, I guess all I'm really asking for is acknowledgement that all the other possibilties weren't viable before he stole the warp coil. WG may be asking for more and certainly don't like that he did it either, but I do acknowledge that it was a military necessity at the time, in the eye of the person in charge, who was acting with what information he had in a hostile territory while trying to prevent most of the other war crimes listed.

[panyasan]

Normally I would agree that the goal doesn't justify the means (also because the slogan "the goal justifies everything" has been misused many times in history), but I do find the definition aadarshinah gave of war crimes very interesting. You could say there was a militairy necessity when Archer stole that coil, but SB also made an interesting point that the moral thing for Archer to do was, to send help to the Illyrians (or a new warp coil) as soon as the mission was completed.

Boy, this talk about Archer really makes to write a story about him. With lots of TnT of course.

[Alelou]

That's a reasonable discussion, and thanks for specifying the definition of war crimes for us.

As far as Archer never feeling remorse, I don't personally see it that way. But I also agree with SB that it was deficient of the show to just leave that storyline and never even mention it again.

Personally, I think it would have been interesting for Archer to learn that in fact they had left the ship vulnerable, resulting in the loss of some or all of that crew.

But I also still think he made the necessary decision.

Hopeful_Romantic or somebody has an interesting fanfic that follows up on this.

[WarpGirl]

A little later...

ILLYRIAN: Given the condition of my vessel, I don't know what we can offer you.
ARCHER: Our warp engine is badly damaged.
ILLYRIAN: We could probably spare a few plasma injectors, maybe some antimatter.
ARCHER: I was thinking more along the lines of a warp coil.
ILLYRIAN: I'm afraid that's one thing we can't spare.
ARCHER: Maybe we can make it worth your while. We have certain technology that you'd probably find useful.
ILLYRIAN: Without a warp coil, the journey back to our system would take three years. We're not equipped for a voyage of that length.
ARCHER: The Xindi have already wiped out seven million of my people. Now they're building a weapon to destroy our entire world. I have to stop them. Without warp drive, I won't succeed.
ILLYRIAN: I sympathise, Captain. I will help you in any other way, but I won't jeopardize the lives of my crew. I'm sorry.

Okay, so I was a little wrong, they knew they couldn't build one in time, but there's a long distance between "attempt to trade" and "steal". While there may not have been any other options, I'd have been happy with a breif scene say between Archer and T'Pol where one is brainstorming things like "How close is the nearest trading post we know of?" or "Could we cobble together something based off a conviently located ship disabled by anomolies?" or "If we assigned engineering crews day and night, would it still take weeks to build a new one?" and the other shooting them down.

I agree with this aadarshinah but I think in this scene he gave up too easily, like you said a short time later he gave the order. It appeared that he made up his mind during his conversation with the other Captain. He could have tried to make his case stronger. Got down on his hands and knees and begged, asked the Captain to talk to his own crew about the mission.

A war crime is, as classified by the Nuremberg Principles, Article VI, is:
(b) War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

Again I am not denying the necessity.

The emphisis is my own.... Anyway, I guess all I'm really asking for is acknowledgement that all the other possibilties weren't viable before he stole the warp coil.

Not really, maybe I am... I guess I'm also looking for more than mere acknowledgement that Archer's actions were horrible. I'm looking for him to accept it. I never got the feeling he did that. It's one thing to say, "Yes I did something horrible that hurt someone..." It's another thing to accept it.