DO YOU LIKE SIM?

[Asso]

Please, read "BEYOND DEATH - Part Two" by Escriba and the comments posted on it, before you write something here (obviously if you want).
Anyway, one thing must be clear: it's all Escriba's fault!

[Alelou]

Okay, I'll carry this here because clearly there's a debate to be had and you know I enjoy those.

To me, Sim is Trip. He has Trip's memories, so he might as well be Trip -- but a Trip who knows he has days to live at most, who at the same time has been suddenly and brutally cut adrift from his own identity, who is being forced to sacrifice himself by a good friend who's suddenly a stranger. I'm not sure I even buy the idea that he's somehow more naive. I think it's less naievete that separates him from the original than his uniquely horrible situation.

Apart from the utter scientific implausibility of those retained memories, I still think this is the best episode of Enterprise because it take a great character and puts him into probably one of the most awful existential experiences you could imagine, and then forces the other characters to play off of and participate in that tragedy.

To me, T'Pol's decision to kiss Trip was an indication that 1) she had strong feelings for Trip even if she wouldn't ordinarily act on them, 2) she truly understood his situation, and 3) she had more compassion in her than I had imagined. I can't see it as taking advantage of Sim at all. Because I believe Sim when he says he's Trip. He is!!!! I wish she had done more than kiss him, frankly. Poor Sim.

[pdsldl]

This is an interesting question. I had to think for a while before I knew how I felt about it.
Sim is not Trip. He even says so when he says he doesn't know if his feelings are his or Trip's. He had Trip's memories, but he had his own as well.

If someone I loved told me they had given themselves to someone who had been sentenced to death I would understand why, but i would still see it as a betrayal. If it was because she had feelings for Trip she couldn't own up to that would be worse.

I assume in this new universe T'Pol will not seduce Trip out of jealousy and then claim it was an exploration.

[Pitseleh]

To answer the original question: Yes, I like Sim. However, I do not think Sim is Trip. Sim may have his memories and body, but he went through a different process than Trip. He sort of lived a parallel life, and that alone makes him different.

I love Similitude. I think it is among the best episodes the show had, and the scenes between Sim and T'Pol are incredibly well done. They're so full of meaning...

I did have a bit of trouble adjusting to Escriba's story. I really like the story so far, but

SPOILER!!!:

T'Pol actually sleeping with Sim

was a bit more than I could handle. I will continue to read, 'cause the plot is quite interesting, but I guess this is a great example of how even when we're all TnTers and we watched the same show, we have different views on certain details which eventually lead to all this great diversity we have, and thus, more fanfic. IDIC, I guess.

[Escriba]

For me, Sim is Trip, but he isn't (then again I use Sim as an allegory, so...)

Sim has Trip's memories, but that isn't enogh. That's why I think he's bolder than Trip (confessing his love to T'Pol and such). Part of it is because his life expanse is very limited (as Alelou mentioned), but other part is because he didn't personally experienced the hurt of rejection. You see, for me, it's not enough having one memories, because even if you remember the pain, you can't remember it exactly, you just remember it hurt. It's like... if your body didn't remember it. There are two memories (for me): mind memory and body memory and even if you have one, if you lack the other... it's not the same.

I mean, it's like if I read a manual as how to shoot a gun. Even if the manual is very detailed, I wouldn't know how to do it, because that memory isn't in my body.

I don't know how to explain it properly.

As for the story, I didn't want to give the impression that T'Pol's decision is good or anything. It's a crappy situation and she didn't have much options. For me, the problem isn't exactly what she decided (which, again, I think is a great stupidity on her part even if she didn't have more choices), the problem is how she acts with Trip after that. She needed to inderstand she did something wrong and they needed to discuss their situation.

Now that they have learnt their lessons, they can move on.

[panyasan]

Honestly, thinking about Sim makes me very understanding of the Vulcan reluctance against cloning and the fact that the Federation banned cloning in a later stage (see DS9). Such dilemma's to be thinking about when you talk about a clone.
Everybody is created out of 2 sets of DNA, forming a new unique set of DNA. Nobody is alike, even brothers and sisters from the same DNA-pole can be very different, every one is unique.
Not a clone. He is a genetic copy of the orginal and Sim even has Trips memories. But he is developing in a different way, in different circumstances, with different people to raise him. He is different then Trip, he got his own unique name, Sim.
He is like a young twin brother of Trip. That's the reason I didn't like the twist in Escriba's story, but that was obvious.

Also for me, Vulcans are higly sensible people. Emotions, feelings, all kind of imput and impressions, it comes to their mind with great force. That's the reason they have to control these incoming emotions and impressions. But there are also touch-telepaths. In touch, they feel and experience emotions with great intensity. That's why they don't like to be touched. In the much intimate touch possible, giving yourself, it is more difficult, almost impossible for a Vulcan IMHO - even more then for a human - to detach emotions. It's very intimate act.

[panyasan]

As for the story, I didn't want to give the impression that T'Pol's decision is good or anything. It's a crappy situation and she didn't have much options. For me, the problem isn't exactly what she decided (which, again, I think is a great stupidity on her part even if she didn't have more choices), the problem is how she acts with Trip after that. She needed to inderstand she did something wrong and they needed to discuss their situation.

I agree with you about the wrong part and that they need to discuss their situation and that you make T'pol aware of the consequences. No easy road here.

[mwpm]

I always the character Sim, he reminded me of a long lost twin or brother to Trip for some reason.
He gave us insight into Trip that I don't think we wouldn't have had without Sim. What upset me in season 3 they made Trip too hard and almost cold and that wasn't him. With Sim, we got to see a softer side of Trip the one I grew to like in season 1 and 2. Since I didn't see the show when it was on the "air", but only re-runs it was a little on the shocking side in how he changed IMO.

Sim, gave us insight in what a happy go lucky child Trip was has a child. So yes I liked Sim

[justTripn]

Of course, I liked Sim! I just posted a (typo-ridden) comment under the story, which I will repeat here minus the typos:

SPOILER!!!:

There is a conversation at the beginning of Fallen Hero, where T'Pol (apparently) asks Trip and Archer if they have had sex recently. They almost choke on their food and then ask why she is asking, and she explains that it is her understanding that the human mating ritual relieves tension, and thus will increase efficiency and they should have a shore leave. It sounds to me like she has no problem with prostitution. I think that she approached the Sim situation in this story with a "so what it doesn't matter" attitude that masked some profound and complicated feelings she had for BOTH Sim and Trip.

I don't beleive people typically are able to sort out for themselves all the reasons for their actions. I wrote story that overlapps this one slightly and decided that T'Pol DID love both Sim and Trip and even loved them slightly differently.

No problem for me, the mother of idential twins, to see how two people can be very much alike, react to events the same, even share some memories, and yet not be the same person.

[Escriba]

To be honest, if you write about T'Pol strictly, she wouldn't allow the procedure to create Sim. But if I were strict, there wouldn't be any story I mean, obviously ethically it's very wrong for Vulcans, so I'm sure she would think that even without Trip, they had to take the risk and go on without him.

The reason I applied to avoid doing this is considering Archer's death as a pivotal motive, not because she would do the same as him for being capitan, but because without Archer, Trip is her only support in the ship. In fact, I see Trip as a real liaison between T'Pol and the rest of the crew. And obviously without him, the chances of friction between her and the crew would increase exponentially. I mean, she hasn't any other relationship inside the ship as strong as the one she has with Trip, in trust's terms. Maybe Hoshi in the RU, but it's far from it.

So in a realistic universe, T'Pol would leave Trip in coma (he wasn't going to die, was he? He just would remain in coma without a transplant, wouldn't he?), she would lead Enterprise, with a lot of luck she could have forged a trusting relationship with Hoshi... then they would destroy the Xindi weapon... save Earth... Trip would go to Denobula to recover... with time Phlox would discover a way to cure him... Hmmmm... Interesting...

[Alelou]

Sim has Trip's memories, but that isn't enogh. That's why I think he's bolder than Trip (confessing his love to T'Pol and such). Part of it is because his life expanse is very limited (as Alelou mentioned), but other part is because he didn't personally experienced the hurt of rejection. You see, for me, it's not enough having one memories, because even if you remember the pain, you can't remember it exactly, you just remember it hurt. It's like... if your body didn't remember it. There are two memories (for me): mind memory and body memory and even if you have one, if you lack the other... it's not the same.

I mean, it's like if I read a manual as how to shoot a gun. Even if the manual is very detailed, I wouldn't know how to do it, because that memory isn't in my body.

I don't know how to explain it properly.

You explain it fine, I just don't buy it. If you feel that your body remembers something, that's fine, but that body memory is still housed in your brain. I think Sim would still have all that from Trip, if he has his memories. He performs just as brilliantly as Trip when he's Sim. But unlike Trip he also has the memories of his short weird life on Enterprise, and the knowledge of his imminent death, and the hurtful behavior of his friends. He isn't that naive -- he can tell the difference between a crush and love. To me, he's simply Trip reacting to his feelings for T'Pol because he knows this is it -- he won't ever get another chance.

This doesn't affect my enjoyment of your story at all, of course.

[dialee]

I'm glad we're talking about Beyond Death here also since there were a few more points or questions I wanted to ask Escriba in commentary but thought it might be too long at ff.net.

Sim is not Trip! Yes, he does have Trip's memories but that is not enough. A person is made of more than just memories. We are made of body and soul, how we are wired together from the genetics, environmental influences upon those genetics, how we accept and respond.

I also agree with the person (sorry, in a hurrty and can't go back) who says we also have physical memory in our body. If you don't believe me, next time, drive somewhere you go to alot when your mind is very occupied.

Sorry, have to go but will be back.

[enterprikayak]

No problem for me, the mother of idential twins, to see how two people can be very much alike, react to events the same, even share some memories, and yet not be the same person.[/spoiler]

Totally. My dad is an identical twin, and he's a penniless drunk in constant rehab, and his twin is the CEO of a large US company.

And yet, you get them in a room, and they share so many mannerisms and conversational styles, etc, they really ARE identical. And yet.....they couldn't be more different.

Dad's psychologists love it. Identical twins, DNA, nature vs. nurture, and all that.

[Alelou]

Nature, nurture, your own free will, and DUMB LUCK.

[Asso]

Well! Now, I think, I have to explain something.

Allow me to go in that from a distance.

When you read a story (but this holds good for whatever you hear or see or feel), the reasons because of which you enjoy the story are "in primis" the heart's reasons.
The story can be good or bad or well written or badly written... whatever you want... it's not matter.
But you will enjoy this story if it meets your inner feelings, and - above all - if the story, regardless of how it's written, sounds - how can I say? - right, at least to you.

You cannot command the heart's reasons. They command you. Not even if you’re Vulcan!

Then there're the mind's reasons.

And here I have to be a little more precise.

Believe me, Sim is not Trip. You can have the same brain, the same flesh, the same heart of another person, but that person is not you.
You will be always and inevitably unique. And - if T'Pol is really a scientist - she must know that.

Or Sim... or Trip. THERE'S NO OTHER WAY.

Unless she wants both.

Really? This is T'Pol? Well! In this case - the heart's reasons command me again - I refuse this T'Pol. It’s NOT my T’Pol.

Ah, but - someone can say - Sim is going to die. And he (or Trip?) loves T'Pol, and he (or Trip?) wants T'Pol.
So, how could she deny herself to him? (please, don't ask me to define this "him").
Which gift greater than the gift of herself, for a woman...of the gift of herself to the man who loves her and who has to die?

Again, really? This is T'Pol? But doesn’t she be a Vulcan? No, no! She’s not only a Vulcan female! She’s T’Pol!

Really? T’Pol is this one? Well, again! In this case - the heart's reasons command me again - I refuse this T'Pol. It’s NOT my T’Pol

Love is NOT merchandise. It’s Not merely a compensation.

Some way I think Escriba herself is in agreement with me, judging from what she said.

But...

But...

And here it's the point...

She said: "As for the story, I didn't want to give the impression that T'Pol's decision is good or anything. It's a crappy situation and she didn't have much options. For me, the problem isn't exactly what she decided (which, again, I think is a great stupidity on her part even if she didn't have more choices), the problem is how she acts with Trip after that. She needed to inderstand she did something wrong and they needed to discuss their situation."

Obviously, whoever can do and think whatever he wants, but... I can't accept this assumption. It's me, obviously, only me. It's one of my limits. But never I'll explore one road uniquely for the desire of exploring this road. I can't allow my mind to prevail on my heart.


So… Please, Escriba, do not get angry or annoyed, but... I admire your style and your ability and your way of writing... but – this time – I can’t fully enjoy your story.

It’s too far from my mind.

And from my heart.


Mmmmhhh...

Maybe I could do something different. I'm speaking so as to explain my feelings. And... if I write? I have some ideas.