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Okay, nobody start throwing stuff at me yet. I am opening this discussion for several reasons. First, pon farr may become relevant to a story I'm working on so as usual when I get down and jiggy with the research, I'm interested in looking at all the angles, even if I don't necessarily agree with them all. Second, Alelou's story and the subsequent discussion thereof has gotten me thinking about it, and I have to be honest and say that some of the attitudes toward the subject have surprised me a bit, and again while I may not necessarily agree, I really am trying to understand.

Before continuing, I will say here that I have seen the Tuvok and Vorik episodes dealing with the subject only once, in first-run, so it was a verrrrry long time ago so many of the details are fuzzy if not gone. All I remember is Tuvok using a holographic surrogate for his wife, and Vorik was dealing on Torres, right?

Basically, I was caught off-guard by how many people seem to think pon farr is always an awful, ugly thing. I thought to myself, would this necessarily be so between a couple that is normally relatively loving and affectionate? And consenting?--remembering that while Vulcans ordinarily suppress their emotions, they do have them, and it's been hinted that oftentimes they do grow to love their mates even if they were total strangers at the time of their marriage.

My impression of the pon farr has always been this: it's a "pressure valve" of sorts, in order to deal with all that repression, and while many Vulcans may wish it never existed, even they have to acknowledge its necessity in order to guarantee the perpetuation of their species--no sex = no babies, and a culture dedicating itself to logic may be in danger of giving up recreational sex. If the body were to make sex mandatory every so often, then you've got a decent shot at ending up with a bun in the oven, and your species doesn't end up extinct. Still, I don't think it's the sex in and of itself that they find distasteful (otherwise T'Pol probably wouldn't have hinted that Archer and Trip should get hookers or portside groupies or something on shore leave), but rather the lapse of self-control.

So one of my questions is, does it necessarily follow that it's always going to be rough and violent, as some people seem to think? My impression of the plak tow is that it doesn't all come on right away; you get some warning signs first, like the mood swings and such, and in the early stages meditation can help a bit. If allowed to continue, then our poor Vulcan gradually loses more and more control, the potential for violence growing because he or she is more and more desperate, and more out of his or her mind. The only canon we've seen on the subject is when the mate was too far away to be of any help in the early stages--Spock and T'Pring, Tuvok and his mate, and T'Pol and Koss were all separated by space travel, and I can't remember what Vorik's deal was, if he was just unbonded or what--so we have yet to see what happens when a mate is right there, willing and able to help. (Unless you count ST III; Saavik was there to help when Spock was going though his accelerated puberty, but that was such a unique circumstance I'm not sure what that really tells us.)

If dealt with early enough, isn't it possible that what we end up with is a couple of Vulcans (or possibly a Vulcan and a Human ) just having the loudest, most intense and possibly bed-wrecking sex they've had in the last seven years? And isn't there something positive and relationship-building about being able to let your hair down and lose control in front of the one person who's going to typically accept you no matter what: your mate? Even for Vulcan couples?

I'm just thinking out loud here, while trying to toss out fodder for discussion. Obviously individual mileage is going to vary; what people think of the pon farr is going to be different depending on what they took away from the episodes in question, and even their own personal outlook on sexuality in general. Personally, I've never regarded the pon farr as something that was necessarily dirty, gross, and ugly--just a fact of Vulcan life--when all we've seen are examples of when it's gone wrong and/or happened under less than ideal circumstances.

Thoughts?

That makes sense. I do think, though, that if a couple hasn't already bonded, and desperation and lack of control set in, that it could be pretty ugly. (As you can tell from the way I wrote it for V and K.)

Re TnT, even though they are at least partially bonded, and Trip's pretty rattled in my story, it's not necessarily by the mere fact of an out-of-control episode with T'Pol. He's got other elements to deal with there, not the least of which is what set T'Pol off. In a different setting, with a little warning, I think he would have been fine with it, and plenty of lovely stories by other fanfic writers have already covered that.

But I do think it's got to be an unnerving experience to Vulcans, who so treasure their control, to go through something like that -- at least in the early years of their sexual maturity. To do it with an alien who doesn't understand what the hell is going on must be even worse.

I have come to hate real universe Polly Pon'farr stories with a passion. It's an overused trick to create angst. So that may cloud my following opinion...

Aquarius wrote:So one of my questions is, does it necessarily follow that it's always going to be rough and violent, as some people seem to think?

The level of implied violence and injuries to Trip almost never make sense in the typical Polly Pon'farr story. They include injuries that almost certainly could not happen in any act of mating and, since Pon'farr is an uncontrollable biological imperative, it makes no sense to waste energy on non-mating activities. Cuts, lacerations and bruises make sense, as well as possibly a fracture or two, but often stories get ridiculous in the amount of damage caused to Trip.

I generally will read Polly Pon'farr stories by authors I like just to see their take on it, but I really wish some author after deciding to make the mistake of writing a real universe Polly Pon'farr story, would venture off on a different path and be creative with it. Having T'Pol literally beat the crap out of Trip has been done to death...

I pretty much agree on the physical damage side of it. In evolutionary terms, it just doesn't make sense to waste the energy on something that's not mating. Fighting off rivals, sure -- nature is full of that. And frankly we're just not all that fragile in the areas that were specifically designed for mating.

I think, though, that there may be a line where physically dominating the object of one's lust -- which no doubt had evolutionary advantages and was also closely related to being able to fight off rivals -- can easily get out of hand, especialy when people with damaged psyches are doing it.

Sometimes I think women are really fortunate that most men are not cavemen. Some are. A few more become so in situations like war or drunken groups that seem to bring out the worst in them. But most men are not, thank God. No doubt because stable mate pairs have clear evolutionary advantages: their children do better.

I've dealt with Pon Farr in my own writing, although my stories tend to more emotional than intellectual, I see the Pon Farr as just as varied as any human sexual relationships are. Each relationship is different depending on the couple involved. I can't see just one type of marital relationship between Vulcans. Some would be loving and romantic while others would be cooler and only deal with Pon Farr and sex every 7 years. with all the variables in between. If they approach it as an aberration then I supposed their resistance to letting go would only add to the violence and make the whole experience unpleasant for both parities. Some people get off on violence, while others would be appalled by it, so why would Vulcans be any different. Logic can only carry them so far when the 'pressure valve' ,as Aquarius aptly calls it, needs to be released.

I haven't read Alelou's story as I like to read stories when they are complete because I end up having to go back and reread them if i do it by chapters and too many stories I liked ended up not being finished and it makes me a little crazy, but I suspect she had a Pon Farr rape scene in her story,unless it's written as porn or in a way that can't be taken as a serious part of her plot then I'm not sure what people would object to besides the whole idea of rape itself. I'm sure she handled the subject with much more seriousness than any of the StarTrek series ever did. Trip was assaulted and impregnated against his will and it was a joke. Deanna was assaulted and impregnated (the scene was shown and seemed like a sexual act to me) and it was fine because the being just wanted the experience of being born, etc... and during a Pon Farr story on Voyager the Vulcan (I think it was Vorik the guy Aquarius mentioned) kept trying to engage in sex with a crewmember without her consent to resolve his blood fever and nobody seemed terribly upset. If anyone approached the many layers that must be involved in how Vulcans see and deal with this part of their biology then even if I didn't agree with their approach I applaud the honest attempt to show us something real.

Alelou--I tend to agree about the unnerving part. I think I was thinking in terms of a couple who's been together for a while and grown comfortable with each other. Obviously, things are going to be a little hairier for an unbonded Vulcan with no other prospects (hookers, maybe?), or someone who doesn't particularly like his or her mate.

In terms of your story, there are a lot of mitigating factors for all parties concerned, so again, I don't think we can take it as being "typical" of a pon farr. And yes, in another time and place with T'Pol, I think Trip could be very into it.

kevin wrote:I have come to hate real universe Polly Pon'farr stories with a passion. It's an overused trick to create angst. So that may cloud my following opinion...

Aquarius wrote:So one of my questions is, does it necessarily follow that it's always going to be rough and violent, as some people seem to think?

The level of implied violence and injuries to Trip almost never make sense in the typical Polly Pon'farr story. They include injuries that almost certainly could not happen in any act of mating and, since Pon'farr is an uncontrollable biological imperative, it makes no sense to waste energy on non-mating activities. Cuts, lacerations and bruises make sense, as well as possibly a fracture or two, but often stories get ridiculous in the amount of damage caused to Trip.

I generally will read Polly Pon'farr stories by authors I like just to see their take on it, but I really wish some author after deciding to make the mistake of writing a real universe Polly Pon'farr story, would venture off on a different path and be creative with it. Having T'Pol literally beat the crap out of Trip has been done to death...

Kevin--I thank you for your insight here. The last thing I want to do is write a cliche, and that's one of the motivations I had when starting this thread, so I could more finely define for myself what pon farr is and isn't, and therefore avoid such a thing.

While I haven't read many T'Pol pon farr stories, much the same thing has been done with Spock and Sarek through the 70s and 80s, so yes, I can understand the frustration of having it used as a cheap plot device to introduce rough sex into the picture. Most of the stories I've read along that line were PWPs any way (for those unfamiliar, "porn without plot" or "plot? what plot?").

I agree that pon farr should be feral, primitive, primal...but I do not see it as the Vulcan equivalent of BDSM.

And your post has caused me to wonder, have some people's negative attitudes about the pon farr simply come from fanon where it was manhandled?

And through all this I had another thought: the concept of a regular mating drive may not be so far-fetched, as some of the anti-pon farr sentiments I've read seem to suggest. Studies show that human women do it once a month. The sexual appetite of women peaks when we're ovulating; we're most likely to get pregnant at that time, so our bodies fire off chemicals that increase the sex drive, so we'll go forth and perpetuate our species. So while the seven year cycle may seem out of left field, the concept is biologically sound. Furthermore, while T'Pol said that it's usually the male that triggers it, it gives me pause to wonder if that's actually a response to the female's fertility? Hmmmm....

Well, in humans the female's appetite may rise with ovulation (I can vouch for that), but most guys are ready to go any time with the right stimulation, which is fairly typical in nature.

But these are aliens, at least in theory. (I don't think Star Trek aliens tend to actually be very alien -- they're just exaggerations of some human trait -- which is fine, it's something we can relate to and still tell a story about.) But if you're really trying to be Sci Fi at all, they've got to do some things differently sometimes, or they're not really alien enough. So you can come up with anything that seems to have some reasonable explanation. The only thing we really know about is the 7-year cycle and the loss of control. Any other puzzle pieces you can fit into that are up to you.

Just don't make Vulcan women like spiders or praying mantises

Sorry about the double-post, but I wasn't sure on an effective way to work other quotes into the same one so here we are.

Alelou wrote:I pretty much agree on the physical damage side of it. In evolutionary terms, it just doesn't make sense to waste the energy on something that's not mating. Fighting off rivals, sure -- nature is full of that. And frankly we're just not all that fragile in the areas that were specifically designed for mating.

I think, though, that there may be a line where physically dominating the object of one's lust -- which no doubt had evolutionary advantages and was also closely related to being able to fight off rivals -- can easily get out of hand, especialy when people with damaged psyches are doing it.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I think the line between what pon farr is physically and the customs and rituals we've seen that Vulcan society has built around it is a little blurred to some people. The mating drive itself is not violent--unless frustration is allowed to sufficiently build, resulting in things like, say, Spock throwing a plate in Christine's general direction. Spock's pon farr became violent because his wife-to-be pulled a bitch move and declared the challenge, which is where biology meets ritual in that rivals are being fought off. Happens in the animal kingdom all the time. Hell, think of all the bar fights that have started because some guy stared just a little too long at some other guy's woman! We just don't have the added factor of a scheduled time and place for these things to happen in our own society.

pdsldl--I agree with your point of view that it's going to be different for every couple involved. Most of the questions I pose will be with the assumption that we're dealing with a couple in a relatively happy, stable relationship, because that's where I want Trip and T'Pol to end up.

Aquarius wrote:And through all this I had another thought: the concept of a regular mating drive may not be so far-fetched, as some of the anti-pon farr sentiments I've read seem to suggest.

I'm not certain if there are any really anti-pon farr as much as anti-Polly Pon'farr. If it weren't for crappy ratings and even worse writing, we wouldn't have to live with Bounty.

We know from various episodes that Vulcan males mate once every seven years. That means at a minimum they are only fertile once every seven years. If Vulcan females also have a seven year cycle, then the Vulcan race most likely dies out very early because the likelihood of syncing up two seven year cycles is a challenge.

Even if you figure out some trick around that, the Polly Pon'farr plot device has been written approximately 6.5 times for every remaining TnT fan. New additions to the heap should show creativity...

kevin wrote:

Aquarius wrote:And through all this I had another thought: the concept of a regular mating drive may not be so far-fetched, as some of the anti-pon farr sentiments I've read seem to suggest.

I'm not certain if there are any really anti-pon farr as much as anti-Polly Pon'farr. If it weren't for crappy ratings and even worse writing, we wouldn't have to live with Bounty.

Well, I didn't necessarily mean your sentiments, specifically. I've seen generalized comments that have said "I don't like the pon farr" and more specifically, "I don't like the female pon farr."

Now, going back to the stone age when TOS fanfic was all there was, I think it was generally accepted that even though the strong mating drive only occurred once every seven years, that didn't mean that it was the only time they had sex; the pon farr is pretty much a failsafe that makes sure it even happens at all, as in the aforementioned case by pdsldl noted that some couples just end up being roomates with seven-year benefits.

I don't think that the likelihood of syncing up two seven year cycles is all that difficult, when you have a telepathic bond to do the work. Also, things can be synchronized through good old pheromones. Women who live or work or otherwise spend lots of time with other women have noticed an eventual synchronization of their menstrual cycles, for example, and studies have pointed to pheromones for that. If our natural biological functions can change because the people we're in close proximity with has changed, I'm sure it could happen for a Vulcan's mating cycle, too.

As for showing creativity, why don't you tell me what you think once I write it and post it? Even if it doesn't end up being the most original thing in the world (because, frankly, I don't have time to sit down and read every T'Pol pon farr story under the sun to know what's been done and what hasn't), it hopefully won't leave you feeling nothing more than "been there, done that."

A lot of new people haven't read all the old fic out there already. There are certainly cliches out there. Anyone who's read enough fic knows them by now, and will recognize them quickly when they start spilling out of a new story and probably move along unless there's something particularly compelling going on (or they're truly desperate for ANY TnT fic). But there are new readers too, who may think ooh cool, I never saw that before.

This isn't rocket science, it's fanfic. I just don't see the point of heaping public scorn on other fic writers because they used this plot device or that plot device in a way that is insufficiently different from every other earlier use of that plot device. It must be very inhibiting for newbies to think they'll get jumped on if they accidentally do something the way someone else did. Especially in Star Trek, where there are literally decades of different shows and fanfics already written.

Aquarius wrote:Now, going back to the stone age when TOS fanfic was all there was, I think it was generally accepted that even though the strong mating drive only occurred once every seven years, that didn't mean that it was the only time they had sex; the pon farr is pretty much a failsafe that makes sure it even happens at all, as in the aforementioned case by pdsldl noted that some couples just end up being roomates with seven-year benefits.

The "once every seven years" thing is even part of ST:ENT prior to Bounty. Both Kov and T'Pol said it.

Aquarius wrote:I don't think that the likelihood of syncing up two seven year cycles is all that difficult, when you have a telepathic bond to do the work. Also, things can be synchronized through good old pheromones.

But then it becomes a chicken and egg problem. Which comes first? If the mating bond evolves prior, that means Vulcans were reproducing without both sexes having a cycle. If that's the case, why develop it since there's no advantage? If the mating bond evolves after, how do the cycles sync up without it?

The big problem with both sexes having a seven year cycle is the various references to once every seven years. It's never been at least once, which provides an easy out.

kevin wrote:But then it becomes a chicken and egg problem. Which comes first? If the mating bond evolves prior, that means Vulcans were reproducing without both sexes having a cycle. If that's the case, why develop it since there's no advantage? If the mating bond evolves after, how do the cycles sync up without it?

I read I don't know where that the seven years cycle was a planetary thing, in the sense that every (or most) species on Vulcan were in sync to that time gap because every seven years the Sun was farther from the planet (or something like that) and reproduction (or more specifically, the result of reproduction) would have more chances of success.

The telepathic bond could evolve after that biological scenery, to make sure that the father of the child will be near the mother to raise the baby together.

But I think the real problem is that this Vulcan mating thingy is (when in canon) something written by men (mostly), so it's something like "Oh, the male has to do it every seven years." "And the female?" "Uh? What? Who cares?"

This may explain why Vulcans are always hooking up with humans once they get enough exposure to them...

Escriba wrote:I read I don't know where that the seven years cycle was a planetary thing, in the sense that every (or most) species on Vulcan were in sync to that time gap because every seven years the Sun was farther from the planet (or something like that) and reproduction (or more specifically, the result of reproduction) would have more chances of success.

That's one of the ways people propose foisting a seven year cycle on T'Pol so she can go through Polly Pon'farr with Trip. Canon is silent, though.