Why MU T'Pol...

[Asso]

So, who would be the one complicated?

[WarpGirl]

Yikes I can't answer that.

Okay lets get back on topic as fun as the witty banter is... Okay let's say for arguement's sake that TnT are completely different people in the MU and that circumstances determines identity... If that is the case, then when TnT find the records of the RU it shouldn't effect them in any way shape or form. They T'Pol certainly wouldn't have any desire to try and change things because she has nothing in her of RU T'Pol...

Now I admit it's been a while since I've seen the episodes. But isn't the story that she does want the Federation and all the stuff she read about? Doesn't that prove she's basically the same person. If I'm wrong I cheerfully eat crow.

[Cogito]

I don't think the difference of similarity between the two universes and the two copies of each character will ever be entirely the same or entirely different. It's not a black and white thing. You yourself are not the same person today as you were yesterday. And if you imagine two different futures tomorrow, the two versions of you are not exactly the same person even if the differences are trivial.

But, regardless of how different they may be, I can imagine an MU T'Pol reading a story about the RU and wondering what it would be like to live in that universe - and perhaps being inspired to try to make her life a bit more like that. You don't need to be like somebody to envy them, or to try to emulate them.

[WarpGirl]

Okay this might just be my brain but I do kinda find this to be a mutually exclusive thing. Either MU Characters are the same as RU Characters or they aren't it can't be both ways.

[Cogito]

Okay this might just be my brain but I do kinda find this to be a mutually exclusive thing. Either MU Characters are the same as RU Characters or they aren't it can't be both ways.

Well, they can't be the same. They have completely different backgrounds and attitudes. There may be similarities, but the only way for them to be identical is for somebody to hand-wave the RU characters into an MU scenario. Which clearly isn't what happened on the show.

[WarpGirl]

Well, they can't be the same. They have completely different backgrounds and attitudes.

Again I think it comes down to what you believe makes us who we are. I say they each have the same personality as the other, their circumstances determine their actions. But they're not different people.

[panyasan]

If you really think that RU T'Pol and MU T'Pol are the same person (and I do believe that theory has merit) then MU T'Pol would feel remorse about what she did to Trip. One of the underlying currents in RU T'Pol live is she feels remorse very strongly (Stigma, The Forgotten, when her mother died, Terra Prime - I can name a few more episode in which this becomes evident. She is a compassiate person and often remorse has a strong influence on her).
Did MU T'Pol show remorse? Well, she is a Vulcan in a hostile enviroment where showing weakness is mostly leads to death. So she has every reasons not show it. In fact, no one is the MU world shows what they are really feeling.

The best MU story IMHO is Payment by BnB. It shows the consequences of T'Pols action in Vulcan perspective and the way it influences her relationship with Trip.

As for does our enviroment influence us? Yes of course. But personally I feel that the basic of humanity is that we can choose. Our free will is what makes us human. There are plenty of people who come from a very difficult background, but choose a different road for their lives. How that works for Vulcans is of course a different question.

[Kotik]

As I said before, the MU is something that doesn't click for me. I can't see, what showing the usual characters as "evil twins" adds to the development of the "normal" characters, especially since they don't meet. In fact if they do, it turns to desaster. There's some story in our archives where RU Enterprise picks up MU T'Pol and it is easily THE worst story ever written.
Thankfully it was abandoned by the author.

[Asso]

I don't like MU, it is stupid, a world written for not grown children, without depth nor insight, where the personages are one-dimensional.
But just because of that I undertook the crazy venture to pump out of it the underground thread of unexpressed hope and humaneness that seems to meander into it.
I know I am unable to compete with BnB, he is unreachable. But the point is not this one.
And this brings me back to reason - the real reason - for which I wanted to open this topic.
In some way I feel that T'Pol - the MU T'Pol - was attracted to her own Trip in grace of deeper reasons than those that a superficial reading of MU could suggest.
Most likely the Authors weren't fully aware of that, most likely they wanted simply to transpose in the MU what seemed to work in the RU, namely the love story between Trip and T'Pol, making it, however, more appropriate to this idiotic and evil universe.
But the fact remains: there is something, deep and unknown, between these two, something that - evidently - it is impossible to ignore.
Now, my friends, you know me: you can call this how you want, but in any case this is love. Bad, maybe, twisted, okay. But it is still this unspeakable feeling.
So, in the same time that I gave myself the answer to my question, I showed, hopefully, what I mean: there is some potentiality in the MU, and it rests on T'Pol and on Trip.
Even if they don't know it.

[Transwarp]

If you really think that RU T'Pol and MU T'Pol are the same person...

What does it mean to be 'the same person?' Are twins the same person? (Answer: no. Which means there is more to being the same person than just having the same DNA.) How about the same memories and experiences? Ah, now we're getting somewhere! I (the 'I' who is sitting here typing this) am the sum of my memories. Without my memories, I am not me. This is why I can't get excited about reincarnation. If I don't REMEMBER my past lives, then they may as well have never happened. My past self died with the memories.

Therefore, the MU people (who share DNA with their RU counterparts) are not the same people, because they don't have the same memories, backgrounds, or experiences. But shouldn't they be 'nicer' then, since they are (at least) sharing the same underlying bodies and brains with their RU counterparts? No, I submit. I believe most of the good in the RU characters -- their kindness, their selflessness, their basic decency -- is mostly learned behavior. I believe we all possess the capacity for selfishness and evil, and must constantly guard against it. I believe if we were raised in a less nurturing, more threatening environment, we would be dismayed to learn what we are capable of. The survival instinct is very powerful.

but in any case this is love. Bad, maybe, twisted, okay. But it is still this unspeakable feeling.

But is bad, twisted love *really* love? Love means putting someone else's needs, wants and desires ahead of your own. I did not see that in MU Trip or T'Pol, so I would not call any attraction they may have had for each other 'love' in any meaning of the term that I can understand.

[Asso]

but in any case this is love. Bad, maybe, twisted, okay. But it is still this unspeakable feeling.

But is bad, twisted love *really* love? Love means putting someone else's needs, wants and desires ahead of your own. I did not see that in MU Trip or T'Pol, so I would not call any attraction they may have had for each other 'love' in any meaning of the term that I can understand.

They have only to learn. That's not impossible. After all it wasn't surely love what pushed our ancestors in the beginning of our path, it was just carnal need.
But we evolved (Mh... well... maybe not for the best, I admit ).
We must put in the open the hidden pearl that is closed into the harsh shell of this 'twisted' and 'bad' ove.

[Transwarp]

They have only to learn. That's not impossible. After all it wasn't surely love what pushed our ancestors in the beginning of our path, it was just carnal need.

If you are saying that whatever the attraction is that seems to be drawing them together could one day BECOME love, then I will agree with you. But to call what we saw on the show 'love' is a step too far for me.

[Asso]

I love "missions impossible."

[WarpGirl]

There's some story in our archives where RU Enterprise picks up MU T'Pol and it is easily THE worst story ever written.
Thankfully it was abandoned by the author.

Okay Kotik I don't think that story is abandoned! And while you have every right not to like it, nobody wants to hear that something they worked very, very hard on is "THE worst story ever written" it might not be to your taste but there are better ways to make your point.

No, I submit. I believe most of the good in the RU characters -- their kindness, their selflessness, their basic decency -- is mostly learned behavior. I believe we all possess the capacity for selfishness and evil, and must constantly guard against it. I believe if we were raised in a less nurturing, more threatening environment, we would be dismayed to learn what we are capable of. The survival instinct is very powerful.

Well, this is exactly why I say I believe they are the same. Because if the the characters we know and love were born in the MU that is who they would be! They wouldn't be our loveable RU characters.

If you really think that RU T'Pol and MU T'Pol are the same person (and I do believe that theory has merit) then MU T'Pol would feel remorse about what she did to Trip.

Okay, you're right I didn't explain that part well. Do I think MU T'Pol really wanted to hurt Trip? No. Like I said I don't think she's evil. Do I think his suffering meant nothing to her? Again no. I think in a very twisted and dark way they needed each other to survive mentally and emotionally. But do I think all of that would make her do it differently if there was a next time? No. She'd do it again, and no guilt. She might not want him to suffer, but if that's what it takes for her to survive and accomplish her agenda then that's what she'll do.

But again I think MU Trip understands that and would do it himself if there was no other option.

As for does our enviroment influence us? Yes of course. But personally I feel that the basic of humanity is that we can choose.

Again another reason why I say they are the same.

[Cogito]

Well, this is exactly why I say I believe they are the same. Because if the the characters we know and love were born in the MU that is who they would be!

If they can have different personalities, attitudes, values and do things which are inconceivable for the RU characters to do, and you still believe they are the same person, then what would it take for them to be considered different? As far as I can see all these people have in common with their RU counterparts is DNA. Is that your basis for them being 'the same person'?