Vulcan Arc

[Alelou]

I can't see any reason why Trip would ask her what he does about what her mom knows and how he would be introduced, unless he has some reason to think he'd be introduced as something more than the colleague he is. And that makes no sense if all they had was one tryst way back at "Harbinger" and haven't resumed a relationship of some kind. Is he thinking she might introduce him as a one-night stand she once had in order to explore human sexuality??? If he's fishing, does he actually think that without any prior discussion, she's suddenly going to say, "as my boyfriend, silly!"

Granted, I suppose they might have decided to try a relationship again but in a belated rush of Victorian chastity are delaying having sex this time around. But that doesn't strike me as particularly believable from either of them. And frankly, if I were Trip and she pulled that at this point, I'd just realize she's a nutcase who will never make him happy and choose the beach on Bali instead.

But I guess this just shows that we can all look at the same show and draw vastly different conclusions about it.

[WarpGirl]

Thank you. I thought I had been sucked into the Twilight Zone. Well they never really stopped being close, even when they barely spoke they were still close to each other. But it doesn't mean they were having a romantic relationship after Harbinger, even though they both wanted too. I do think part of the reason T'Pol offered to take Trip to Vulcan was an attempt to re-start the relationship. But I still say Trip's questions and flirty eyes were him trying (in his way) to push things along.

Alelou what about that relationship ever made ANY sense? I don't understand why people keep looking for it to make sense. PEOPLE usually make no sense. Nothing about TnT's actions made sense until Bound. And Trip is just as much a "nutcase" as T'Pol because he willingly went along for the ride. It was what he wanted.

[Silverbullet]

Wg, remember in the "Unexpected" T'Pol says meeting Mom is a prelude to a proposal and marriage. T'Pol used the opportunity Trip provided by saying her had no where to go to get him on Vulcn to meet Mom. I think she wanted to see what Mom's reaction was.

Also, Trip asks T'Pol what has she told Mom about him, about US. That seems to mean that thier is an US as in a romantic relationship. I believe they started up thier Sexual Relationship again. Too, T'Les says she knows that Trip and T'Pol have a romantic relationship. All point to more than two people bein g on thesame ship only talking to one another.

[Kotik]

Wg, remember in the "Unexpected" T'Pol says meeting Mom is a prelude to a proposal and marriage. T'Pol used the opportunity Trip provided by saying her had no where to go to get him on Vulcn to meet Mom. I think she wanted to see what Mom's reaction was.

'fraid you got that wrong. She said that meeting mom is 'a precursor to marriage in some cultures. Can't be in Vulcan culture because unless your name is T'Pol your hubby-to-be doesn't need to meet mom, she chose him for you when you was a child.
I believe she wanted him there for support.

Also, Trip asks T'Pol what has she told Mom about him, about US. That seems to mean that thier is an US as in a romantic relationship. I believe they started up thier Sexual Relationship again. Too, T'Les says she knows that Trip and T'Pol have a romantic relationship. All point to more than two people bein g on thesame ship only talking to one another.

One can be divided about it. If they really had started a relationship (with our without the roll in the hay) they would have discussed their plans together before she had started to pack.

[Alelou]

Alelou what about that relationship ever made ANY sense? I don't understand why people keep looking for it to make sense. PEOPLE usually make no sense. Nothing about TnT's actions made sense until Bound. And Trip is just as much a "nutcase" as T'Pol because he willingly went along for the ride. It was what he wanted.

Well, I obviously spend a lot of time trying to make it make sense by filling in blanks between scenes. I'm fairly invested in them having a relationship that makes sense, or I would have given up on this ship a long time ago.

Personally I think people usually make a great deal of sense. They have motivations, though they are sometimes hidden. They have identifiable personalities (though again, some people take great pains to try to project a fake one). Short of sudden brain injuries or other mind-altering events, they don't tend to suddenly turn into a completely different person.

So I can swallow a certain amount of ridiculous plotting, but not making sense in terms of established characterization? That's a story I'm just not going to believe or enjoy.

[WarpGirl]

There is the fact that they didn't discuss plans together when they're relationship was at its best! Which is why I say their actions have never made sense. Maybe its because its the first (that we are aware of) Vulcan/Human relationship. In any case I don't remember ever thinking either one of them had actions that made sense for a romantic relationship. Its part of the reason I find them compelling actually.

Alelou maybe I'm just a product of my mother and my Counselor, but they both told me that as soon as I except that the majority of people don't make sense, the happier I'll be.

But you say that people have hidden motivations, yeah and because they're hidden other people usually don't know what they are. So by your own statement Trip's questions could have been "fishing" questions, if his motivation was to push T'Pol into defining their previous and present relationship. In which case they don't necessarily have to be having sex. As far as "established characterization, yeah Trip was the MOST consistent, but T'Pol was all over the universe.

[Silverbullet]

Kotik she didn't rule out Vulcan culture. True marriages are arranged. So meeting Mom is not needed. But we are talking about a Human. T'Pol is taking him to Vulcan so Mom can look him over and hopefully approve. If she does then T'Pol can make her move until then she can lay low. Obviously Koss upset the apple Cart.

Always wondered what if (BIG What IF) T'Pol somehow got Preggers from that night in the Expanse. by Home she would really be showing. so

T'Les "You have put on weight T'Pol"

T'Pol "Tumor"

Trip "Yeah, Boy Tumor"

T'Les goes in to kitchen takes knife and slashes her writsts

[WarpGirl]

If that was why T'Pol wanted to take Trip home, which is not exactly improbable. Why not just tell him? Because Archer had to order him off the ship?

[Enerdhil]

Trip wasn't the most assertive guy in their relationship. But he had his moments. I keep a mental score card...
In E2 he gets... A for effort, C- for execution, F for timing. In Home... A+ for effort, A- for execution, D- for timing. In Daedalus... A+ for effort, A+ for execution, C for timing. In Bound A for effort, B+ for execution (there is such a thing as overkill), A+ for timing.

You forgot to attribute him several D- for the behavior during the Augments mini arch... On my opinion she was trying to say - T'Pring-like, "Hell, I'm here, you're here and that guy is 16 light years away, let's follow what we initiated." But he was too dam a nerd to understand/accept.

It is not logical to assume only one relation. Otherwise they would not agreed to extra neuropressure at the end of 'Damage'. Let's say, I do make sex with you one night, and in the next others we only remain half clothed, well-behaved, applying therapeutic touches to the other's skin ??? Remember, there are about 1,5 months between the first night and return to Earth. Debriefing period? Travel to Vulcan? Extra time to share. Nonsense.

And they might have had sex before (in screen it is not said that it was their first relation, it is only assumed). Maybe some previous neuropressure sessions also finished in sex, without the 'romantic' touch of jealousy (and not so surprising to him as she dropping off the robe). From Trip's discussion with Phlox on 'Demons' Lizzie should have been conceived about October 2153, assuming Vulcan pregnancy is of 9 months (I would suspect to be longer, because in mammals longer lifespan in usually associated to longer pregnancy), and I expect Trip was able to make the correct add-ons... We can forget about premature births, Phlox only had DNA to sample, so his dating was made based on the father/mother DNA combination (the same technique he used to detect T'Pau's DNA age), which states age after conception. He certainly took off the standard pregnancy period before saying it was from a 6-month old.

[WarpGirl]

I'm sorry but there is no direct proof they slept together more than that one time. It's not logical but NOTHING either of them did was logical after Harbinger.

[Rigil Kent]

If that was why T'Pol wanted to take Trip home, which is not exactly improbable. Why not just tell him? Because Archer had to order him off the ship?

When exactly did she ever just come right out and tell him what she wanted? I can think of exactly once - the hallway scene in "Bound" when he metaphorically backed her into a corner and forced her to say what she wanted - so I stand with those who believe they were involved post alien Nazis & pre-Home. Their interactions before the whole Koss thing just don't make much sense to me otherwise.

I'm sorry but there is no direct proof they slept together more than that one time. It's not logical but NOTHING either of them did was logical after Harbinger.

No direct proof, but a boatload of implications. As Enerdhill points out, Trip's questions & statements to Phlox in "Demons" regarding the binary clone certainly imply that they had sex more than once.

I guess I just don't understand the reasons behind your insistence that they only slept together in "Harbinger." *shrug* To me, they were likely sexually active after Zero Hour (the trip home in the Xindi Aquatic ship, maybe some comfort sex as they grieve for the loss of their friend) and then again after the alien Nazis (not often, but certainly more than once), which came to a screeching halt post-wedding, and then they likely resumed the relationship after "Bound" (more sex) but hit a major rocky patch prior to "Demons" (I could totally see that being due to her finally revealing the trellium nonsense, or him finding out, or something.) But they certainly don't seem like "one and done" to me.

[Silverbullet]

In both Demons and Terra Prime it is indicated that they had an ongoing Sexual relationship. T'Pol says "I have never been Pregnant (by you since it is in reference to the Baby Phlox says is thiers) Never implies more than once. Had she said I did not get Pregnant that night in the Expanse it would mean just one night. Later Phlox says that Trip would know if T'Pol had ever got pregnant (ever to me means they had sex more than once and probably started some time after Bound) he also says that Trip would know if T'Pol had an embryo removed. How would Trip know? Phlox would not know about the Bond so Trip would have to see T'Pol naked as see that she was either bleeding from the abortion or her Sex Organ lopoked as if it had been recently operated on. In the Mine T'Pol says "You think I might have gotten Pregnant and not told you about it. (Again indiating an ongoing relationship.) Everthing in Demons and Terra Prime points to Trip and T'Pol having a sexual relationship

[Enerdhil]

"Keep it simple, keep it straight!"

My former advisor always instructed me to look for the simpler explanation, before trying to obtain a more complex one. What's work for Physics & Engineering also works in normal, day to day, life.

The simpler interpretation of TnT interaction from the 'Expanse' on is that a couple that starts "flirting" (if we can name flirt to neuropressure sessions), became attracted, make sex, turns into a pair of girlfriend/boyfriend, have some strifes, "divorce", join again, ... and so on. It is easier to admit this interpretation than looking for other reasons why two people too close would avoid having normal sex.

[WarpGirl]

Look I'm not saying it is stated it didn't happen again. But all of the "implications" that might mean they did have an on-going sexual relationship, could also imply other things. While T'Pol says I have never been pregnant she could be referring to their relationship after Bound. Who knows. But from what I saw in the relationship after Harbinger, I don't see any evidence they resumed a sexual relationship. They took a while to not be awkward after Harbinger, then had to get over the nastiness that was E2, plus they were insanely busy.

Like I said before, in Home I believe Trip was trying to push for a resuming of their relationship. And T'Pol was considering it herself but was taking her time about it.

[Asso]

Each one sees what he wants to see.
That mustn't absolutely be intended as offensive, it is a mere constatation.
I think, though, that it's definitely true.