T'Pol's Un-Vulcan Like Behavior

[WarpGirl]

I'm not fighting with you. I'm saying NONE of the Vulcans from ENT were proper Vulcans and I don't see T'Pol as a rebel. You don't think so that's fine. I'm just talking.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Well he is very good at this isn't he.

Of course I am!

I don't know KTR, while I agree that the corrupt government (infiltrated by the Romulans) was trying to weaken Vulcan by surpressing most of their telepathic abilities and heritage in general, I think it would have been impossible to make a formal declaration out-lawing mating bonds. You can out-law mind melds, because while a Vulcan naturally has the ability they can choose not to use it. A mating bond is different, because it's a physiological response.

They didn't outlaw marriages and the term "mating bond" in use was in all likelihood just a holdover that didn't have any psychic meaning. The government expected people to marry, have kids and all, but since mind melds were outlawed they thought very few pairs would actually be able to form this legendary psychic bond. And those that did (like I imagine T'Les and her husband did) kept their mouths shut.
Like pookha said (hi there, long time no see )

you might get a very mild form of the mating bond with out all the telapathic ability on line but to get a true full fledge bond i suspect from what little we saw the ability to meld plays a part.

I don't understand, you did say to bring up UnVulcan behavior. During season 1 she was snappish, rude, prejudiced, and she was expressing her emotions as a human would.

Well, to be honest most of the other Vulcans we saw back then exhibited this kind of behaviour. And many Vulcans later on, in other Trek shows, could also be rude and prejudiced. Think of old T'Pau in Amok Time. I really don't see this as a big flaw in ENT.

[WarpGirl]

What can I say I'm Spock's and Sarek's girl.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

And even Sarek back in TOS exhibited emotionalism and prejudices. He didn't care for Spock joining Starfleet. And his logic faltered when his son was concerned in TSFS.

[WarpGirl]

Very true but not in a human way it was very controled and organized. It fit with the culture. And he worked to overcome his weaknesses. Like I said I don't have a problem with the concept just the execution.

[pookha]

I'm not fighting with you. I'm saying NONE of the Vulcans from ENT were proper Vulcans and I don't see T'Pol as a rebel. You don't think so that's fine. I'm just talking.

what is a proper vulcan??
valeris.. the vulcan captain from the baseball ds9 episode who
was a far greater ass then even soval ever was.

we were supposed to see through what vulcans claimed to see they were far more complex then they claimed to be.
supposedly sarek's complaint with starfleet was they might have to use force.
but he himself knew of how to assinate with his own hands and as spock noted could kill if there was a logical reason.

actually braga from early on had the concept of letting the vulcans evolve just as the humans were learning and evolving.

from early season 2

You'll also be doing more with the Vulcans?

Braga: One of the things we realized early on, when we were doing this series, that there was a chance to make the Vulcans really interesting again. Not since the original series have the Vulcans played a major role in Star Trek, and although Tuvok on [Star Trek:] Voyager was an intriguing character, he was all by himself. And the Vulcans are really a paradoxical species, especially on this show, in that they are very enlightened, and consider themselves to be enlightened, but they're really kind of screwed up, too. I mean, they have all the wonderful paradoxes that humans have, in that we're striving to be better people, but we have all this baggage. And we really enjoy the Vulcan element of the show in the first season, and it matured into something I thought was really interesting. So we're going to continue with that.

the problem was a lot of the plans got thrown out when the show started to tank after anis.
they were under a directive to get away from the birth of the federation and especially the vulcan stories.
they were not allowed to go back to them until much later on in the season.

as for tpau..
i sorta believe her being rude at first was a test of bones and jim. to see how they would react.

because she did a pretty fast 180 even congratuling spock on his choice of companions when they made it plain they would stand by him.

[WarpGirl]

Well I guess to me a "Proper Vulcan" is one who lives up to the values of their culture. Copying something off of the Vulcan Culture Institute not mine...

These are Surak's most important teachings...

Cast out fear. There is no room for anything else until you cast out fear.

As far as possible, do not kill. Can you return life to what you kill? Then be slow to take life.

We have differences. May we, together, become greater than the sum of both of us.

There is no offense where none is taken.

The spear in the other's heart is the spear in your own.

He talks peace if it is the only way to live.

Do no harm to those that harm you. Offer them peace, then you will have peace.

There is no other wisdom and no other hope for us but that we grow wise.

Reach out to others courteously. Accept their reaching in the same way, with careful hands.

Time is a path from the past to the future and back again. The present is the crossroads of both.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

Change is the essential process of all existence.

Vulcans like Tuvok and Sarek and Spock who follow this teachings are "proper Vulcans." To their credit, T'pol was learning rapidly, and I believe Soval always was in secret working for the greater good along with T'Les and V'lar. But the Vulcans in ENT were not proper Vulcans. It's actually a good concept but it was poorly executed. Now I have to mourn because I just saw *the_abomination* for the first and LAST time.

[Aikiweezie]

I don't know if it's okay to do this, so just let me know if it's no-no, but there's a really interesting discussion on T & T on the TrekBBS bulletin board that both support and dispute what we've all been saying..

Jolene Blalock's quotes on T'Pol and her "Vulcanness" will be of particular interest. I am assuming, of course that these are true.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=89978&page=9

[WarpGirl]

OK if I was coughing myself to death because of a stupid cold, I'd be laughing my head off! Because if those quotes are true I was just backed up by the actress herself! She summed up my feelings on Trellium and every other mockery they made out of her character and her UnVulcan behavior. I don't personally care if she thought T'Pol and Trip should be together or not. That's the way it made sense on screen she smoldered with CT she didn't with SB for whatever reason. Notice she didn't mention Nuropressure, or falling in love with a human, or mind-melds, or sweets and alcohol. That's because those things weren't UnVulcan. Except the eating with her hands, but they had her doing it for no logical reason. And yeah that's a screw up. So I guess I'm in the clear if the woman who plays T'Pol agrees with me. Too bad she wasn't a TnTer oh well...

[Aikiweezie]

Yup - I'm resurrecting this again because I rewatched Fusion today and was struck by T'Pol's willingness to explore emotion early, very early, on.

Her initial instincts were to dismiss the V'tosh ka'tur" ("Vulcans without logic") as reckless and dangerous but GUESS WHAT - she did what Tolaris told her to do (not meditate) and let him meld with her even though she barely knew the guy. She WANTED to feel those emotions and see if allowing them into her life was possible. I don't know how I could have left that whole thing out. I think it set the stage for T'Pol's many emotional struggles down the line.

T'Pol was obviously attracted to Tolaris, too. I think the erotic dream established that. And she WAS alone with him in her quarters in what could be argues a rather intimate situation. (Of course then the Jerk took advantage of her and basically raped her - scumbag) She was treading on dangerous waters with him and he took advantage of the fact that her emotions were close to the surface.

It's late - I'm probably babbling, but I think this is another example of why I see T'Pol as a rebel.

[WarpGirl]

Guess what I am going to disagree! Shocking I know. T'Pol was curious yes, but she would have never indulged that curiosity without Archer and Phlox pushing her. Especially Archer, but another can of tuna. Did she want to try to integrate her emotions, hmm maybe but not quite to the extant Tolaris or Tavin had in mind. As for the sexy dreams, dreams don't count. Heck I've had wierd dreams about people it is impossible for me to think of in that way. Besides not all Vulcans need to be touching to initiate telepathic contact. Especially, when the two telepaths have naturally strong abilities. I think it's obvious that T'Pol is a powerful telepath considering she fought the scum off without any prior experience. How do you know Tolaris wasn't screwing with her dreams? And remember both Phlox and Archer told her she would be safe if she just let go a little. Yeah great advice, that worked out great, the woman was RAPED!

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, T-Pol was Mind Raped by the guy. Not physically Raped.

She was stupid to allow him to get into her head. Tjhat she was able t fight him off and out of her head was strength and a littlle luck.

What I hated about that Episode is that the scumbag never paid for it. He got away scot free. I wanted Archer to Burn the guy to a cinder when he had the chance. Or least had him put in the brig.

Always whised that Trip had come in at the right time to help her.

[WarpGirl]

I know she was mentally raped. What's the difference? He chose her based on sexual attraction. It's the same thing.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl. Not being female I cannot possibly view Rape of any kind from a womans aspect.

Reading about just doesn't seem to cover it.

Mind Rape, Physical Rape. both are a violation of the woman.

I believe that a Mind rape could be hidden from others than a Physical Rape as it seems that a Physical Rape is always accompanied by violence to the woman usually in th form of beatings and the like.

Still, the Rape had to bother T-Pol a great deal as she let her guard down and was taken advantage of because of it.

Of course that is why I am bothered by the fact that the Guy walked with no consequences at all. True, t-Pol may not have told anyone it happened if she had not been hurt so that Phlox had to Attend to her and he knew what happened and then Archer found out.

One of the thiings of the Episode is how Archer gained T-Pol's trust enough so that she told him what happened. althhough she did not want him to do anythng about it.



NOt a happy subject.

[WarpGirl]

Well my point is there is no difference in T'Pol's case. If Tolaris just wanted some emotions to feed off of there were 87 people to choose from that don't bother with surpression. He chose T'Pol because he wanted her, both mentally and sexually. I still say he was screwing with her dreams. I'll bet that if she hadn't won fighting back a physical rape would have happened as well. And Archer failed in his duty as a Captain, he should have told Tovin what happened DESPITE T'Pol's objections. She was in no condition to make a rational choice. His duty is to protect his crew, and to warn an ally of any danger they may be facing. They might have been V'tosh Ka'tur and Vulcans might see them as devients, but the fact remains that they ARE Vulcan citizans and Vulcan is Earth's ally. Tomorrow "Stigma" is on and I can't wait.