Non-TnT pairings

[Aquarius]

You know I was always curious about something, since this is the "net" and the vast majority of people in fandoms do not meet in person, is Fic writing truly a female dominated thing? Or do people just lie about gender, age and other things. Unless you're a major hacker, I'm not sure that's something that can be quantified.....

Well, when you consider that fanfic got its starts waaaaaaaay before "the 'net" in the form of newsletters and fanzines that were sent around via snail mail, often with their origins in local fan clubs...and that there are media cons devoted to fanfic and fan art of all fandoms where people do meet face to face...I think I can confidently say that yes, it seems pretty well female dominated.

This is not to say that there aren't men in all fandoms who do it. It's female *dominated*. And I did point out that Enterprise/TnT is an *anomaly* due to the presence of so many men.

[WarpGirl]

Well I tell everyone that I'm a woman, but I've given no real proof of that. I'm just curious if people ever lie about themselves doing this. For the record I don't lie. But I can totally see it happening.

Aquarius I understand that. And while the Zines and other form of fan stories and are not on the net are female dominated I'm just saying the "net" makes it possible to be completely hidden behind whatever you put in. I could be a man and you would never know. I doubt that it never happens.

[Kotik]

Well I tell everyone that I'm a woman, but I've given no real proof of that. I'm just curious if people ever lie about themselves doing this. For the record I don't lie. But I can totally see it happening.

Aquarius I understand that. And while the Zines and other form of fan stories and are not on the net are female dominated I'm just saying the "net" makes it possible to be completely hidden behind whatever you put in. I could be a man and you would never know. I doubt that it never happens.

I don't think it's too easy to hide, because it shows in the fiction. Some will hate me for it, but in many female written stories, Trip is something of a doormat, being tossed around by T'Pol and coming back begging for more. I think KTR raised that question in the early days of the forum and he got a helluva lot of flak for it. Male written fanfic is either rather fluffy (like my stuff) or has Trip being rather strong and pushing the issue. In male written fanfic, he usually doesn't take the junk he's been served in season 4 too well. I think a somewhat knowledgable observer could easily tell if a particular piece was written by a man or a woman.

[Aquarius]

WG--And you think that the people who were involved with paper fandom haven't shifted over to the net in some manner or other, or are like me and do both, because the landscape of fandom has changed? Or that there aren't newer, younger fans and writers who attend these things who've never held a paper zine in their hands before?

Furthermore, there have been academic papers done on the subject of just who writes fanfic, and what kind. I suggest you do a google search. It's interesting reading.

[Misplaced]

I'd have to agree that Enterprise seems to garner more male fanfic writers than the other series. In fact when I started to delve into the glorious world that is TnT shipping, I was quite shocked at the number of men who were openly supporting the pairing. Some of the best fanfic I've ever read have been by men (or people I'm reasonably certain are male. LOL)

I'm a woman. A non-romantic tomboy, but most definitely a woman. (I don't really dig chick flicks, personally, but there is just something special about TnT that drags the latent romantic out of my recessive genes.)

Of course, there is the chance of subterfuge... and but it's been my experience that most folks are generally open about their actual gender, if not any other details about their lives.

[Aquarius]

Well I tell everyone that I'm a woman, but I've given no real proof of that. I'm just curious if people ever lie about themselves doing this. For the record I don't lie. But I can totally see it happening.

Aquarius I understand that. And while the Zines and other form of fan stories and are not on the net are female dominated I'm just saying the "net" makes it possible to be completely hidden behind whatever you put in. I could be a man and you would never know. I doubt that it never happens.

I don't think it's too easy to hide, because it shows in the fiction. Some will hate me for it, but in many female written stories, Trip is something of a doormat, being tossed around by T'Pol and coming back begging for more. I think KTR raised that question in the early days of the forum and he got a helluva lot of flak for it. Male written fanfic is either rather fluffy (like my stuff) or has Trip being rather strong and pushing the issue. In male written fanfic, he usually doesn't take the junk he's been served in season 4 too well. I think a somewhat knowledgable observer could easily tell if a particular piece was written by a man or a woman.

I find that theory flawed and anecdotal at best. That would be like me saying that most men who write romantic smut are easy to pick out because they either write straight-up porn, or love scenes that are so trite and contrived that there's no way anybody would actually behave/speak that way.

And then there is the phenomenon of the well-written sex scene that came from the mind of a virgin.

[WarpGirl]

WG--And you think that the people who were involved with paper fandom haven't shifted over to the net in some manner or other, or are like me and do both, because the landscape of fandom has changed? Or that there aren't newer, younger fans and writers who attend these things who've never held a paper zine in their hands before?

No that isn't what I meant at all. I just meant to say that with the net fandoms are larger than when they first started. And that the odds of everyone just on this site meeting are practically non-existent. I know I will never meet anyone from here. So it is entirely possible for me to lie and nobody here could prove it. And I'll bet people do it in all fandoms.

As for the research done, yeah I know they research it, but satistics can lie all the time too. There is no perfect equasion if somebody lies.

Kotik Originally, I thought Elessar and Transwarp could have been women just by reading their stories. And none of them write the type of fic you're describing as "typically male" or "typically female."

[Misplaced]

I find that theory flawed and anecdotal at best. That would be like me saying that most men who write romantic smut are easy to pick out because they either write straight-up porn, or love scenes that are so trite and contrived that there's no way anybody would actually behave/speak that way.

And then there is the phenomenon of the well-written sex scene that came from the mind of a virgin.

I agree. But I will say that latent prejudices exist. I have toyed with the idea of putting my (original, non-fanfiction) work under a more gender ambiguous pen name because there is a sense that women generally don't write action/adventure (my preferred genre) as well as men do, overall -- despite any proof to the contrary. I merely toyed with the notion though. And no, none of my fanfiction is any indication what kind of original work I have... since fanfic is my outlet for my extremely dormant girly side.

[honeybee]

Well, considering that misogyny, as well as all other forms of prejudice, is against board rules and has always been - I would imagine anti-women posts would not be welcome and met with a lot of flak. Trip being a doormat is canon in some people eyes, whether be male or female - and the writing staff of ENT was male dominated. Also, I will question the wisdom of repetitive and stupid broad assumptions based on gender, since they are often all about the insecurities and lack of intelligence of the people who make them. Of course, I cannot speak to the specific incident as it was before my time.

I would also question the intelligence of any person who used fandom as a vehicle for their stupid broad based assumptions about women - since as Aquarius pointed out, there are more men than women who write and support the genre. Also, since there are so many women writing in the fandom, anyone who is not looking with hate-filled eyes will find a broad diversity of fics - good, bad and indifferent - written by both men and women.

I will add that Trip being a doormat is NOT canon in my eyes, and I have two XX chromosomes, something that does not make me less of a writer, less intelligent or less valuable than man.

[Aquarius]

I'd have to agree that Enterprise seems to garner more male fanfic writers than the other series. In fact when I started to delve into the glorious world that is TnT shipping, I was quite shocked at the number of men who were openly supporting the pairing. Some of the best fanfic I've ever read have been by men (or people I'm reasonably certain are male. LOL)

I'm a woman. A non-romantic tomboy, but most definitely a woman. (I don't really dig chick flicks, personally, but there is just something special about TnT that drags the latent romantic out of my recessive genes.)

Of course, there is the chance of subterfuge... and but it's been my experience that most folks are generally open about their actual gender, if not any other details about their lives.

Precisely. We're not talking about people who are trolling the internet for under-age dates or looking to bilk people out of money. In most cases, people are honest about their gender because they have no reason *not* to be in this situation. At the very most, people will use pen names with androgynous initials or gender-ambiguous screen names, but usually if you get to know them and *ask* them, they'll tell you. The only "deception" you usually encounter from a fan author is that they're using a pen name because they're trying to break into the pro writing business so they don't want their fannish activities to encroach upon and possibly harm their professional lives.

But honestly? What would a fanfic author have to gain by telling everyone they're a guy when they're not? Or vice-versa? Okay, maybe a couple have done it here or there, but it would hardly be enough to skew things to a point where things are really male dominated when we've believed them to be female.

[Kotik]

I find that theory flawed and anecdotal at best. That would be like me saying that most men who write romantic smut are easy to pick out because they either write straight-up porn, or love scenes that are so trite and contrived that there's no way anybody would actually behave/speak that way.

And then there is the phenomenon of the well-written sex scene that came from the mind of a virgin.

I get your idea, but I sort of disagree. First of all, the most delicately apreciable smut has been written by females. In fact I'm hard-pressed to name too many pieces of enjoyable smut being written by men. Many seem to appreciate the 'fade to black' option. I tried my hand at the 'virgin writing a sex scene' bit occasionally. At 37 years of age and exactly 3 intimate encounters in my entire life I wouldn't call myself particularily experienced, but I tend to think that reading my stuff gives it away that I'm male. Maybe I'm a freak of nature, but I think it is sort of possible to tell an authors gender from reading a story, not every time of course, but in the majority of cases.

[WarpGirl]

I'm just saying that people may not want to be "themselves" and might create a "fandom identity." I can think of a dozen reasons why, none of them nefarious. The number 1 reason in my head would be they didn't want their friends/family knowing they write. It's also possible that people might want to hide their ages, in case other people think them too young to write there stories, or again not want their friends/family know that they a grown adult do this.

[honeybee]

Well, I've never thought too much about what NC-17 stories are written by what gender, I do know that heterosexual men are capable of writing romantic type smut. I knew two straight married men in New York who wrote bodice-ripping romance novels under female names. I also knew one gay man who did that (I remember his pen name was Vanessa Royale.) I've never read romance novels, so I don't know if they were any good - but they kept getting published. They also all wrote westerns and other types of genre books for a male audience.

I remember having a conversation with a couple of these guys - they said that the language they used changed only slightly for audience - although romance novels dragged out the smut. But they said that the changes were pretty minimal, despite what you might think.

There are appreciable differences in male and female sensibility - although those differences are fluid and not calcified - but what I took away from the conversation was that anyone can write to a specific audience and genre - if they set about to do so. And audience expectations will change based more on the genre. Again, I enjoy fandom smut but not romance novels - so obviously "the female audience" of those books is a subset of women and doesn't represent the all.

[Kotik]

I'm just saying that people may not want to be "themselves" and might create a "fandom identity." I can think of a dozen reasons why, none of them nefarious. The number 1 reason in my head would be they didn't want their friends/family knowing they write. It's also possible that people might want to hide their ages, in case other people think them too young to write there stories, or again not want their friends/family know that they a grown adult do this.

Maybe you're a tad too paranoid there, dear Usually a screen name is all it takes. Except for someone, who is closely familiar with russian language, no one will ever make much sense of my screen name and even then will not know where it came from. And besides, I believe that if you need to hide your writing from your family, you shouldn't write in the first place. I've met a lot of fanfic writers here, who would wipe the floor with any storywriters of the actual show - at least until Manny Coto joined the party

[Aquarius]

Again, I beg to differ. Our fearless leader Elessar writes beautiful romance and hot smut--no contrived behavior or dialogue, no "ick factor."

In the Han/Leia world, Darksean comes to mind.

And neither of them write "like women" (whatever the crap THAT is even supposed to mean???), but as a woman reading it, I do feel it was written just *for* me as I hang on every word.

And as honeybee astutely pointed out, "doormat", like smut, is in the eye of the beholder. And instead of painting women and/or what they like to write with such a broad brush all the time, why not judge individual works on their individual merits and leave whether or not a woman wrote it out of it?