"Divergent Paths" Discussion

[Rigil Kent]

"Big Dam Hero", you are talking Carlos Hathcock in Elephant Valley stuff here dude, add a touch of Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, and a big chunk of Audie Murphy for good measure.

Something like that, I hope.

Hey I always thought one of the Tucker family heirlooms should be a Bowie knife, too bad he doesn't have one now.

One, he probably does have a blade, and two, even if such a heirloom existed, it's highly unlikely he'd have taken it with him on the initial shuttlepod ride.

Come to think of it I don't understand why Trip never carried around a utility knife just for work.

In my universe, he does. I just don't mention it.

I mean guys down where I live no matter what they do for work, always carry pocket knives. Sometimes more than one.

I generally carry three. Two are simply utility devices, the third is very much an offensive/defensive weapon (4" blade I keep as sharp as possible.)

Plus I always thought he must have spent some time in Mississippi because his parents moved there, why there?

Logical presumption is that he has family there, maybe grandparents or some aunts/uncles.

And the Trip who tries to reintegrate is going to be a lot different from the pre-DivPath Trip.

If this means, he doesn't swallow bullshit talk =>
And also if he has the backbone to make decisions quickly (and doesn't hesitate 'if he should inoculate the crew') => great

I could probably answer this with a couple of words, but they'd be too spoilery, so RAFO.

I find it hard to believe that even "weaponized" Trip could beat a well written former Section 31 operative like Malcolm Reed. Note the words (well written)

I don't find it hard to believe at all. Trip has a dedicated Vulcan "sensei" who, in addition to teaching him physical combat techniques, has also instructed him in advanced Vulcan mental disciplines that Reed isn't going to have had access to. As we've seen on the show, Malcolm really wasn't that much better trained than your regular Starfleet security officer (one can presume that he simply let his killing skills lapse or even that his training was in areas other than being a Trek-equivalent of Jason Bourne - we frankly have no idea what the nature of his job with the section was, so presuming he was a highly trained lethal weapon when there is more than sufficient canonical evidence to say otherwise is not logical), so when you throw in Trip spending a considerable amount of time on a hostile planet where one wrong move could end very badly for him, it really isn't that big a stretch to presume that he'll emerge sharper and harder than before, reforged in the fires of his experience so to speak. I don't really have any plans to have Trip and Malcolm to get into a fight, but if they do? Well, Trip is one of my two favorite characters on the show, so it's probable he'd end up winning. Maybe.

I don't like the idea that these experiences could potentially change the fundemental relationship of Trip and Malcolm.

Then you might be disappointed because, IMO, these experiences are going to fundamentally change all of Trip's relationships. Some for the better, some for the worse, some in simply different ways. But, in the words of Jeffrey Sinclair from Babylon 5, "Nothing's the same anymore."

Also "weaponized" or not, Trip is an engineer, I can't see him wanting to leave that. I can't see him wanting to leave Enterprise either because it is his engine. Of course if he was promoted, to a prominent position in either Engineering, or a Captaincy that I could possibly accept. I'm not asking what Rigil has planned, because I don't want him to answer.

Well good. 'cause I wouldn't have answered anyway.

[Transwarp]

Don't think the security officer of any ship he's aboard would be pleased to discover the ChEng is a much bigger badass than him/her

Why not? Unless the security officer is unprofessional (i.e. an 'immature juvenile', as Reed and Hayes were portrayed in the expanse during their petty little power struggle). Fortunately, the security officer doesn't have a say in this, and I can imagine a good Captain would want as many people as possible who could take care of themselves in a fight. Unless you are suggesting that 'weaponized' Trip is a loose cannon who can't control himself? Which I doubt very much, especially given who trained him.

I mean guys down where I live no matter what they do for work, always carry pocket knives.

Many people who used to carry pocket knives no longer do, especially those of us who travel frequently. If you forget to take it from your pocket before you check your bags at the airport, you have two choices: miss your flight, or discard your pocket knife (and I hope it wasn't the family heirloom that your great grandpa carried in WW I).

Wish list for the story? Hmmm...
1) I'd like to see T'Pol having to defend her relationship with Trip to the corrupt pre-Kirshara Vulcan High Command. Ought to be good for some high drama and righteous indignation.
2) Weaponized Trip kicking some ass back in his old home town. Any number of possible scenarios come to mind, from settling a score with the old school bully to a run-in with the local chapter of Terra Prime. (Yeah, the entire bunch!)

[Thot]

Hey I always thought one of the Tucker family heirlooms should be a Bowie knife, too bad he doesn't have one now. Its just that I always thought Trip being the type of guy he is, which is a lot like guys where I live, would be the type to carry one around.

Yes, we do. Some of us carry two.

My younger brother had you beat Navigator he used to carry 3!

I generally carry three. Two are simply utility devices, the third is very much an offensive/defensive weapon (4" blade I keep as sharp as possible.)

Do I have to be concerned, guys?

I have a bigger Swiss Army Knife with a tong, rasp, scissors, little screw driver aso. also with a blade, but I use it more like a universal tool for work at home, instead of carrying it with me.

Then you might be disappointed because, IMO, these experiences are going to fundamentally change all of Trip's relationships. Some for the better, some for the worse, some in simply different ways. But, in the words of Jeffrey Sinclair from Babylon 5, "Nothing's the same anymore."

And the challenge lays in writting this plausible and interesting. I'm very anxious to see your work.
While you are mentioning "Babylon 5": the Sinclair/Garibaldi relationship would be an interesting example for a changed, "not for the better" connection, whereas this has some reasons, which are not only base on their personal attitudes (*hinting a lot but not willing to spoil* )
Although I would prefer you keep Archer/Trip to the "some for the better" side, because I always found the setting between them far more interesting than between Trip/Malcolm (The easy going mind becomes friend with the more introverted one and the latter loosens up.) Additionally, their relationship wasn't the best anymore, when Trip and T'Pol crashed on the planet. Therefore, to turn a strained relationship into a ruined one isn't much of a challenge and at last considering Archer's reaction after Trip's presumed death, it appears ridiculous to me, that Archer would let slip away the chance to connect to the person, he morns for so long. Otherwise out of Archer's eyes Trip would have died after all on Ekos.

Please don't get me wrong: I like Malcolm and I like the friendship, but compared to the Archer/Trip setting it appears to me worn out/not with so much potential.

Don't think the security officer of any ship he's aboard would be pleased to discover the ChEng is a much bigger badass than him/her

I can already envision something like: "Your Tiger-Claw Fu is impressive, but nothing compared to my Dragon-Flame Fu, young padawan." Okay the last expression is from a different setting, but who cares....

[Alelou]

Carrying a pocket knife can get you suspended from school in these parts. Hell, just having one in your car in the parking lot can get you suspended (if someone rats you out, as happened to an Eagle Scout up here recently). And I had to warn a student who was doing a presentation on pumpkin carving NOT to bring a knife and actually do any of it in the classroom.

After Columbine, schools are paranoid. It gets a little stupid. You should see the weird device they use to cut the cakes with in our dept.

[WarpGirl]

One, he probably does have a blade, and two, even if such a heirloom existed, it's highly unlikely he'd have taken it with him on the initial shuttlepod ride.

Hence why I said too bad he doesn't have that knife now

In my universe, he does. I just don't mention it.

Which shows you have an uncommon amount of good sense.

I generally carry three. Two are simply utility devices, the third is very much an offensive/defensive weapon (4" blade I keep as sharp as possible.)

Oooh Pretty! Remind me never to tell you where I live just in case I tick you off so badly you snap.

Logical presumption is that he has family there, maybe grandparents or some aunts/uncles.

That is the first time anyone here has said any statement I've made is logical. Thanks!

I don't find it hard to believe at all. Trip has a dedicated Vulcan "sensei" who, in addition to teaching him physical combat techniques, has also instructed him in advanced Vulcan mental disciplines that Reed isn't going to have had access to. As we've seen on the show, Malcolm really wasn't that much better trained than your regular Starfleet security officer (one can presume that he simply let his killing skills lapse or even that his training was in areas other than being a Trek-equivalent of Jason Bourne - we frankly have no idea what the nature of his job with the section was, so presuming he was a highly trained lethal weapon when there is more than sufficient canonical evidence to say otherwise is not logical), so when you throw in Trip spending a considerable amount of time on a hostile planet where one wrong move could end very badly for him, it really isn't that big a stretch to presume that he'll emerge sharper and harder than before, reforged in the fires of his experience so to speak. I don't really have any plans to have Trip and Malcolm to get into a fight, but if they do? Well, Trip is one of my two favorite characters on the show, so it's probable he'd end up winning. Maybe.

Oh no! I just hate what they did to Malcolm in canon. I'm going to wait and see what you do to him. But seriously I think Trip's "trials by fire would make him and Malcolm closer not drive them apart. And I'm sorry do you think it made sense to write Malcolm as an operative of Section 31 one which Harris was loath to give up, if he wasn't a Jason Bourn, Micheal Westen, type? Um It doesn't for me. TPTB screwed up there.

Then you might be disappointed because, IMO, these experiences are going to fundamentally change all of Trip's relationships. Some for the better, some for the worse, some in simply different ways. But, in the words of Jeffrey Sinclair from Babylon 5, "Nothing's the same anymore."

Would you please stop warning me that I might be disappointed, I haven't been seriously let down yet. I doubt I will be. Your style of writing keeps me hooked so even when you do something I wouldn't do I still enjoy it very much. Do you want to disappoint me?

Well good. 'cause I wouldn't have answered anyway.

Hence the reason I would never try to ask.

Why not? Unless the security officer is unprofessional (i.e. an 'immature juvenile', as Reed and Hayes were portrayed in the expanse during their petty little power struggle). Fortunately, the security officer doesn't have a say in this, and I can imagine a good Captain would want as many people as possible who could take care of themselves in a fight. Unless you are suggesting that 'weaponized' Trip is a loose cannon who can't control himself? Which I doubt very much, especially given who trained him.

Oh Transwarp You stole the words from my fingertips.

Alelou My sociopath 14 year old cousin has gotten suspended more times than I can count. But while kids where I live now can't bring them to school, they still keep them as soon as they're home, and everywhere else.

[Rigil Kent]

i.e. an 'immature juvenile', as Reed and Hayes were portrayed in the expanse during their petty little power struggle

I think you'll like my version of the relationship between those two characters when I get around to introducing Hayes. As this is an AU and the MACOs hadn't yet been introduced to the timeline yet, I didn't feel shackled to how they were portrayed on the canon show (which was pretty incompetent - my old Boy Scout troop could have kicked their ass without difficulty and any of the infantry units I served in, including the ate up Florida National Guard one, would have eaten the MACOs alive.) Since I see Starfleet as a military (whether they want to admit it or not) albeit one that has evolved in a different direction from the way a Navy operates, I decided that the MACOs needed to evolve beyond just being GROPOS. So it'll be a lot of fun playing with them.

And as a fan of Steven Culp, I've gotta say that Hayes has a better than average chance of surviving the Xindi mission (which is also going to play out a little differently.)

Unless you are suggesting that 'weaponized' Trip is a loose cannon who can't control himself? Which I doubt very much, especially given who trained him.

Your doubts are well founded. Trip will very much be in control of himself. Scarily so, I hope.

Do I have to be concerned, guys?

Yeah, probably.

I have a bigger Swiss Army Knife with a tong, rasp, scissors, little screw driver aso. also with a blade, but I use it more like a universal tool for work at home, instead of carrying it with me.

I carry a Leatherman, which serves the same role, and have this mini-utility tool with a blade attached to my keys.

Carrying a pocket knife can get you suspended from school in these parts. Hell, just having one in your car in the parking lot can get you suspended (if someone rats you out, as happened to an Eagle Scout up here recently). And I had to warn a student who was doing a presentation on pumpkin carving NOT to bring a knife and actually do any of it in the classroom.

After Columbine, schools are paranoid. It gets a little stupid. You should see the weird device they use to cut the cakes with in our dept.

Yeah, it's pretty stupid. I carried blades all through elementary, middle, and high school (being a Scout myself, although never made it to Eagle - was Life? Frak, I can't remember.) I get the school's wanting to provide safety, but they've just gone overboard with some of the nonsensical actions I've seen them take. If somebody wants to hurt someone, they're going to do so, regardless of whether the paranoid schools ban the otherwise harmless tools. No knives? Then they'll use a baseball bat. Or a car.

One, he probably does have a blade, and two, even if such a heirloom existed, it's highly unlikely he'd have taken it with him on the initial shuttlepod ride.

Hence why I said too bad he doesn't have that knife now

Hence why I said that he probably does have a blade on his person. He does have one on his person throughout chapter 54 - he simply had no need to use it.

But seriously I think Trip's "trials by fire would make him and Malcolm closer not drive them apart.

Not if Malcolm's own trials take him along a divergent path. *shrug* I haven't figured that part out yet, but I'm not going to say yay or nay at this point.

And I'm sorry do you think it made sense to write Malcolm as an operative of Section 31 one which Harris was loath to give up, if he wasn't a Jason Bourn, Micheal Westen, type? Um It doesn't for me.

And again, we have no idea what his specialized skillset was that Harris didn't want to lose. Instead of him being a super bad-ass field operative, maybe he showed an excellent talent at intelligence analysis or organization of field ops (ala a Mossad katsa or old school CIA control officer.) There's more to intelligence work than field work and insisting that Reed was a Michael Westen (oh, shiny. New BN episode tonight!) type when canon itself to this point seems to patently disprove such an assertion is not logical.

[panyasan]

Reading the last chapter, I developed a sort of theory why the bond now set Trip into ultimate survival mode, including having skills that are T'Pols. If the bond is at the core of Vulcan being, as is survival and protecting your loved ones/mates, the moment a mate is in danger, the bond instinctly finds all means to protect a mate and survival. Just thinking aloud.

[WarpGirl]

I think you'll like my version of the relationship between those two characters when I get around to introducing Hayes. As this is an AU and the MACOs hadn't yet been introduced to the timeline yet, I didn't feel shackled to how they were portrayed on the canon show (which was pretty incompetent - my old Boy Scout troop could have kicked their ass without difficulty and any of the infantry units I served in, including the ate up Florida National Guard one, would have eaten the MACOs alive.) Since I see Starfleet as a military (whether they want to admit it or not) albeit one that has evolved in a different direction from the way a Navy operates, I decided that the MACOs needed to evolve beyond just being GROPOS. So it'll be a lot of fun playing with them.

And as a fan of Steven Culp, I've gotta say that Hayes has a better than average chance of surviving the Xindi mission (which is also going to play out a little differently.)

THANK GOD! Killing Steven Culp was AWFUL! And the way they did it... Actually your sense of Starfleet as a military makes sense to me unlike some others. I think the operative phrase though is in this time period they absolutely do not want to admit it. Why else would Forrest ask Archer if he was going ot be comfortable having military personel on board?

Hence why I said that he probably does have a blade on his person. He does have one on his person throughout chapter 54 - he simply had no need to use it.

Understood.

Not if Malcolm's own trials take him along a divergent path. *shrug* I haven't figured that part out yet, but I'm not going to say yay or nay at this point.

I'll be waiting.

And again, we have no idea what his specialized skillset was that Harris didn't want to lose. Instead of him being a super bad-ass field operative, maybe he showed an excellent talent at intelligence analysis or organization of field ops (ala a Mossad katsa or old school CIA control officer.) There's more to intelligence work than field work and insisting that Reed was a Michael Westen (oh, shiny. New BN episode tonight!) type when canon itself to this point seems to patently disprove such an assertion is not logical.

IDK I see your point but since Malcolm was usually always volunteering to do the big bad dirty stuff, and really wanted to hunt with those guys in Rogue Planet I've got a hard time seeing him not being a total Bad*** I'm watching the BN marathon right now, I love that show.

[Rigil Kent]

Reading the last chapter, I developed a sort of theory why the bond now set Trip into ultimate survival mode, including having skills that are T'Pols. If the bond is at the core of Vulcan being, as is survival and protecting your loved ones/mates, the moment a mate is in danger, the bond instinctly finds all means to protect a mate and survival. Just thinking aloud.

An interesting notion, although not entirely what I had in mind. Mostly, I just wanted to highlight that his level of skill far outstripped these "soldiers" (which truthfully, isn't that big of a stretch since historically, very few military forces have deployed very highly trained personnel in the field when it's cheaper to just send in waves of troops with mediocre or average levels of training) thanks to the stuff Taskmaster T'Pol has been forcing him to learn at a greatly accelerated pace. The bond in this case is allowing him to sort of 'turn off' the pain and function mostly normally. I suppose that I could see him unconsciously tapping into some of T'Pol's own skills - I've done that in the Endeavour stuff - but ultimately, I'd intended for everything he does from here to the rescue to be something he could normally do himself thanks to his talents and skills. But the bond is certainly driving him ... although honestly, even if the bond didn't exist, I think Trip wouldn't do anything much differently than he is now.

And again, I was approaching the bond as similar to the Warder's bond from Jordan's Wheel of Time series. It probably does give him a little boost, but it isn't that substantial.

I see your point but since Malcolm was usually always volunteering to do the big bad dirty stuff, and really wanted to hunt with those guys in Rogue Planet I've got a hard time seeing him not being a total Bad***

But neither of those examples are indicative of a high level of skill, only an enthusiasm toward his job and quite possibly a deep-rooted death wish or general lack of care about his own personal safety (thus implying a certain level of guilt. "Any damned fool can die for their country," after all. If anything, his general lack of canonical asskickery capability only seems to emphasize my thoughts that he was an exception logistics guy or operation planner for Section 31 and not a field operative. He volunteers for those front-line missions now because he was basically shackled to a desk while working for Harris and he now feels like he's got to make up for the agents/spies/whatever he sent to their deaths.

I haven't fully determined the exact nature of what his job was while he was in the Section, but I do know that he's not going to have been a Jason Bourne/Michael Westen kind of spook. Sure, he probably did go into the field when the situation warranted it, but he isn't going to be a walking, talking lethal weapon.

[WarpGirl]

Hey my motto is you're the one writing, do what you want. I'm not trying to push you into anything.

But why would anyone offer to do highly dangerous specialized stuff, when their skills were only average? The point of doing all of that stuff is to protect the ship, and that's Malcolm's job. I'm asking this because your point about canonical evidence is valid, I just could not grasp the way Malcolm's character was developed. On the one hand he volunteers to do almost every insane job there is, (and rejected in favor of Archer) but we never saw what he was capable of. I'm still not even sure if he won that fight with Hayes. And then we find out he's an operative in Section 31, and a highly valued one. But yet he still gets ignored... What can he do? I can't see him offering to do all of that stuff if he didn't believe he was fully capable of kicking some ***. It makes no sense, yet that's what we saw on screen.

[Lady Rainbow]

Interesting theory about Malcolm's possible function within S31, Rigil. I can actually see him as a superb planner and tactician, and he does have decent skills in hand-to-hand combat, and I'm sure Harris wouldn't want to lose someone who can make covert operations run smoothly. Though I'm sure he'd probably have to have /some/ field agent experience somewhere.

A friend and I had an interesting debate over whether or not Malcolm (as written by TPTB on the show) would have been a successful (or effective) S31 agent. My opinion was the same as yours...the way he was written, probably not. I really didn't like how that played out...which is why fanfic is usually different. Malcolm's a man of action...but sometimes I think he thinks too much, especially when personal issues are involved.

I'm interested to see how he and Hayes will react to each other in your DivPaths Universe. The feud between them made Malcolm look like a whiner and Hayes as an arrogant a$$.

[Rigil Kent]

But why would anyone offer to do highly dangerous specialized stuff, when their skills were only average?

I can think of any number of reasons. Death wish, a desire to prove their skills aren't sub-standard, desperate desire to prove one's self, belief that one must atone for things done in the past (e.g., sending men and women to their deaths senselessly), mistaken belief that said skills are exceptional, etc.

And then we find out he's an operative in Section 31, and a highly valued one.

Well, from a meta point of view, that was pretty clearly a late addition to his character history (ala Hoshi's sudden aikido abilities that had before "Observer Effect" been non-existent.)

I can't see him offering to do all of that stuff if he didn't believe he was fully capable of kicking some ***.

And to counter, I can think of numerous reasons why he would offer to do those things while being aware that his ass kickery is not as good as it should be. See above.

Consider this scenario, if you will: Reed joins Starfleet and is immediately recruited by Harris. He (Malcolm) then spends X number of years working for the Section (or whatever its calling itself at this point) doing intelligence analysis (ala NSA stuff), control officer stuff (tactical plots for the field agents) and other essential non-field work, all the while excelling at the role (which is why Harris doesn't want to lose him.) His cover is Starfleet Weapons R&D (which explains his technical aptitude in regards to armament.) During the course of this Section 31 career, he becomes steadily disenchanted with Harris' refusal to put him in the field for really important missions since Malcolm is too valuable to endanger on "grunt" work. Reed is also too well-placed inside R&D in Harris' opinion to risk. So Malcolm continues to get frustrated because he thinks that he's being wasted behind a desk as well as feeling more and more guilt over being responsible for sending good agents to their deaths, and this ultimately leads to a confrontation with Harris where the latter intimates that Malcolm's skills simply aren't up to the level necessary for field work. Somehow, Reed manages to talk Harris into letting him go on a field mission. Naturally, this "milk run" (as Harris meant for it to be) turns out to be anything but, and Malcolm loses a couple of friends, perhaps because he screwed up somehow. On top of this failure, he discovers that they were all being misled as to the reason for this mission which leads him to seriously question the entire purpose of the section. So he walks away from the Section and transfers to Security (this would be the tour of duty he had immediately prior to Enterprise launching.) Now he's obsessed on making up for the mistakes that got the above-mentioned friends killed. Thus, you have a disillusioned spy who actually wasn't much of a spy.

And that's just off the top of my head. Huh. I might end up raiding some of that down the road...

A friend and I had an interesting debate over whether or not Malcolm (as written by TPTB on the show) would have been a successful (or effective) S31 agent. My opinion was the same as yours...the way he was written, probably not.

Plus, as I'm sure you recognize, the whole "Reed was section 31" was a major a$$pull on the part of Manny Coto in season 4.

Malcolm's a man of action...but sometimes I think he thinks too much, especially when personal issues are involved.

Which could actually work with my above scenario - sometimes, field agents are just supposed to react, not think...

I'm interested to see how he and Hayes will react to each other in your DivPaths Universe. The feud between them made Malcolm look like a whiner and Hayes as an arrogant a$$.

Heh.

[WarpGirl]

Dude you are scary. You did all of that off the top pf your head! All of that is wonderful for a fic, but to tell the truth, if it was like that in the show, I'd probably explode. Because all that would do would be to undermind his character even more by making it right for Archer to keep doing his super hero routine. Part of my entire problem with ENT was that so many of the characters were made unecessary. Travis, and Malcolm were the heavy casualties. And I love DivPath's Travis, really I do. He's actually got some real narrative worth. I like to see Malcolm have that kind of worth too, but I've seen the "death wish, guilt trip" Malcolm so often, I'm wondering how it could work here if that's what you decide. But the only character I really see true death wish tendencies in is Archer. And no that is not a request to kill him!

[Dinah]

Rigil, I like your take on Malcolm. That makes perfect sense. The "fanfiction" Malcolm of the past couple years has gotten rather out of hand over the past couple of years, creating a "super" character every bit as obnoxious as Archer, only weighed down by a load of guilt and insecurity to boot. It made perfect sense for Malcolm to be the one to try to deactivate the mine in "Minefield," but that doesn't mean that he has to be the bodyguard for every mission or do every dangerous job. Good officers can delegate. Good officers know the strengths and weaknesses of their subordinates and make assignments accordingly. I may be completely wrong about this, not being a guy, but I don't think Malcom would have reacted so defensively to Hayes from day one, if he'd had more confidence in himself and his abilities. Instead of trying to take the bullet for everyone but Porthos, he would have made a far greater contribution to the welfare of the ship if he could have found a way to get Archer to take him and his concerns about ship's security a little more seriously.

[Asso]

Instead of trying to take the bullet for everyone but Porthos, he would have made a far greater contribution to the welfare of the ship if he could have found a way to get Archer to take him and his concerns about ship's security a little more seriously.

Sure, but it was very difficult to find such a way. We are speaking of Archer.