AU or Not AU?

[WarpGirl]

Well it's no secret that I hate Archer. I was never too keen of Scott Bakula as an actor, but that was because I watched a lot of Designing Women in my childhood. Why? Hospitals didn't have great cable plans back in the day. I certainly would never disrespect the man himself though. I'll never meet him. Anyway JB was never a TnTer either. She didn't think he and T'Pol had anything in common. But if I had to guess I'd say quite a few execs didn't really want TnT. Even in Bound they had lines to appease the A/Ters. And the execs that truly wanted TnT wanted to make the relationship as difficult as could possibly be. I'm glad the series got canceled when it did. At leas ending it with Terra Prime gives me a future to hope for. And I don't trust those new books to end things happily.

Like I said before I hate ENT as a series, but I love every character except Travis and Archer. I relish seeing what this group of talented people do with them. And I hope that a few people appreciate my efforts as well. But I don't assume they do.

[honeybee]

Oh man, if A/T'ers favorite episode is Twilight for the relationship between A and T, I think the poor things are eating awfully thin gruel.

Does Archer really pout in E2? I guess he was damned curious about who the father was. But I could also see that as him being pissed that TnT are cavorting just as rumored without ever letting him know what was going on. I could even imagine that he might have sent a feeler or two out to Trip and gotten nothing in return, or even a definitive no if Trip was in a bad mood about T'Pol at the time.

Yes, Twilight is thin gruel for the A/T crowd. It's pretty vague on what the relationship of A/T actually was. But I do think that episode is well-written and has crackerjack pacing. Plus it gives me Captain Trip, and I love Captain Trip.

Vis a vie, Archer's shock in E2. I always thought that Archer was trying not to be jealous or disappointed and sort of failing. But I might just be projecting on that. The recapper at TWOP (Keckler) interpreted it that way - and I followed suit. But I do agree that if TnT were in a relationship, Archer would be pissed for professional reasons as well as personal. So it could be that, too. Or maybe he's just shocked because they seem so mismatched - even though we know they aren't.

[WarpGirl]

His eyes screamed "WHAT! If she had a child he is supposed to be MINE! How the hell did my best friend manage to steal her from me? And has he already done it?" Which he did of course. But yeah I can never see Archer being happy about TnT. Maybe not an immature lunatic like I've seen written. But seriously not making the toast at the wedding.

[honeybee]

In truth, Archer would have reasons to be concerned about a relationship between TnT. Not only would both Starfleet and the Vulcan High Command probably disapprove for political reasons - having his two senior officers dating would probably cause trouble - and it did. Trip left Enterprise because of T'Pol. So, even if he wasn't jealous, he wasn't wrong that the relationship was trouble for him.

[WarpGirl]

Yeah I agree there'd be outside trouble. But in truth I think he'd take it more personally than he would want to admit.

[Silverbullet]

Can't comment too much on Bakkula other than I thought his acting on Ent was not the best. The only other hting I have ever seen him in was QL and only a ferw episodes of that.

The lack of chemistry between Archer and T-Pol was so evident. It may be that there wasn't any personal chemistry between JB and Sb but they only interacted on a professional level. I have read and heard in interview that JB ad CT got along well personaly and professionaly. So that might acount for some of the chemistry we see between TnT.

JB may not have understood the characters if she said that Tnt had nothig in common. Of course not the characters wee from two different species and different worlds. I think that later JB revised her opinion of Trip being a Rednecked Hick.

I still think that the writers had Archer showing disappointment that lorain was not his child. in E2

[Alelou]

Honestly, I can just see him being hurt/pissed that what he must think of as his two best friends (on the ship at least) would be carrying on behind his back ... and this would only be complicated by the very real command issues it could raise.

I'm not hostile to the idea that Archer might have entertained some lustful thoughts for T'Pol, though I don't see much evidence of it outside of that silly ANIS and even there I took it as something bizarre being comically whipped up by a wrongheaded Phlox. If you ask me there's just really no chemistry between A and T, even when they tried to write some. The way I see it, Archer gets some sort of not-entirely-healthy pleasure from feeling that he can actually support and guide this Vulcan chick. It's a weird combination of patronizing and paternalistic, mixed in with some genuine regard ... plus the knowledge that she really does save their asses regularly.

[WarpGirl]

I have to say I think it was more a lack of good material for SB than acting skill. As for JB I wouldn't say she didn't understand the characters, she was disappointed with the writing. And they did write TnT very inconsistantly the way the entire series was.

But I do also believe Archer WAS NOT happy Lorien wasn't his.

Sorry Alelou whatever A's feelings for T I will never believe they were platonic or paternal.

[Alelou]

That's fine. As I said, I don't begrudge anyone that interpretation. It would actually make Archer more interesting to me if I thought he was carrying around this hopeless longing for his first officer, one he never indulges because he knows it's not appropriate. But I really just don't get any feeling of ongoing personal angst off him that doesn't have anything to do with Henry Archer or the things he did in Season 3.

[WarpGirl]

It's amazing how people can see the same things so differently. No wonder eye-witness testemony is so shakey in court. I don't begrudge you your interpitation either. I hope you know that. I might think that's crazy, but it's not to be mean.

[honeybee]

If you ask me there's just really no chemistry between A and T, even when they tried to write some. The way I see it, Archer gets some sort of not-entirely-healthy pleasure from feeling that he can actually support and guide this Vulcan chick. It's a weird combination of patronizing and paternalistic, mixed in with some genuine regard ... plus the knowledge that she really does save their asses regularly.

I think this is a good way of looking at it. Outside of ANIS - Archer never really showed any interest in T'Pol, outside of friendship and support. And he did support her in Shadows of P'Jem and The Seventh. And she supported him in First Flight. And the fact that there's little or no sexual attraction makes their friendship very interesting. In Implications, I pictured them as "work spouses" - they work closely together as a team and very in synch with each other but are both perfectly content to lead their romantic/sexual lives elsewhere. But I wrote T'Pol as drawing a line when Archer's girlfriend tries to hone in on her position as first officer.

I actually have a close male work friend that I work very in synch with - and we get each other coffee and attend meetings together and collaborate on projects together - but there is zero sexual chemistry. He's happily married to a woman I adore and I have a serious boyfriend that he likes. No jealousy at all - his wife has even told me that she appreciates that there's someone at work who has her husband's back. (And keeps an eye on the copious female students that crush on her husband. The guy is sadly Edward Cullen - like. An ex goth. The girls love him. My tastes run elsewhere. )

[WarpGirl]

Five words... Shadowes Of P'Jem The Seventh. I know it was bad chemistry but the INTENT was not supposed to be platonic.

[Silverbullet]

I always thought and the writers even had Trip say "We make a hell of a team." in bound

It seemed that the writers were trying to make T-Pol side Kick T-Pol in the second season. They had her dog Archers heels constantly.

Trip and T-Pol worked better and I didn't see T-Pol and Archer working so well together . Of course Archer never let anyone do anything anyway.

[WarpGirl]

To try and go back on topic, I would have loved to see an AU where maybe Forrest didn't die, or the Kir'Shara was never found and the Rommies took over Vulcan, enter TnT resistance fighters! You here me Escriba or Honeybee?

[Transwarp]

OK, while you try to get back on topic, I'm going to derail it again.

Conventional wisdom has it that 'Twilight' is an A/T-friendly episode (and it can certainly be interpreted that way, thin gruel though it is), but I actually like it. I like the sense we get of T'Pol's compassion and loyalty, both for humanity and for her Captain. It's not necessary to suppose a romantic relationship between the two; in fact, her actions become all the more remarkable (and poignant) if you don't.

She does not shirk her duty, no matter what it may cost her personally, and she always treats Archer with dignity and respect, despite having to answer the same painful questions over and over again, and despite the fact that he has become a mere shell of his former self. I have nothing but admiration and respect for the T'Pol in that episode.

So I can see why 'Twilight' might be a highly-favored episode by viewers in general, without implying they are in the A/T camp.