"Divergent Paths" Discussion

[Navigator]

I just found this discussion a couple of hours ago. I have left some comments previously on Rigil's LJ account and am delighted he has returned to this story.

I do have some comments and they are going to be in the minority. I believe and hope that Rigil is setting us up for some really strong interpersonal relationship and leadership challenges in future chapters. Like when Archer gets relieved because command has lost confidence in his ability.

Kelby had the moral high ground here and I am surprised at Starfleet officers being so... docile. There is not an O-4 who I know who would have rolled and accepted what he accepted. The common first statement would have been, "I respectfully request Court Martial and I respectfully request counsel". After that there would have been a closed door session with Hernandez that would have been along the lines of - "if you file charges, I'll file charges. Yes, I did violate a direct order but it was an illegal order. So therefore, Commander, try on Conduct Unbecoming, Official Oppression and Conspiracy. In the Captain's case you can add Dereliction, as there are no written first contact procedures, Ma'am. By the time this hits the media, you won't even command an earth space junk retrieval scow, Ma'am."

I guess I was looking for a Cpt. Sobel - Lt. Winters Article 15 moment here and it didn't happen. Every time I read the chapter, I am less and less fond of Hernandez. I think the only reason she is having anxiety at the beginning is she can see her career evaporating if she can't get Kelby to be the fall guy.

Now my viewpoint is somewhat colored by "cold war thinking". I remember the Russian Merchant Mariners who defected to the USGC cutter getting pulled off back to the Soviet ship and beaten while the Coasties stood and watched. It seems analogous.

[WarpGirl]

Basically yes: If there was ever a case, where a sentient being was in need of help during the first two seasons than it was the Cogenitor.
Think abou, what her life included: slavery, the surpression of any personality, prostitution... I don't want to fathom, who many children "Charles" already had

The only thing I could point out is the way Trip made his approach: to sneak around, not to openly question it. But in the end I can't blame him for that, since that's exactly, what Archer did with the Sulibans and Tandarans in the detention camp.

Ah Detained one of my favorites... Um no. OK here's my thing about Trip or Kelby's actions in Cogenitor... The Vissians technology was insanely advanced for the time, they made the Vulcans look backward. So they had the ability to blast Enterprise out of the stars no problem. Trip or in this case Kelby's actions could have been taken as a hostile act of war. They were interfering with the Vissians reproduction, (even if they were morally right to do so) that's serious business! Suppose they hadn't been a peaceful race? It just completely bugs me that any member of the senior staff wouldn't take that into consideration. And nobody mentioned that. One of the things I was very glad about in this chapter is that Kelby was properly disciplined, (unlike Trip) and he will have the guidence he needs and the support (hopefully) to get through the emotional toll of the cogenitor's sucide.

Also regarding the male female pronouns I try to stick with the term cogenitor.

Rigil one more question, why do you think Erika's emotional reaction to what she had to do has a baring on her abilities as an officer? She is a human being, it was a normal reaction. Now if it had crippled her I would understand but it didn't do that. She was compassionate and empathetic but it didn't hinder her in what she had to do. Or did I miss something? Maybe I have to make the font on my screen larger...

[Pitseleh]

I have enjoyed reading Erika's character so far, and her struggle is so interesting to read. I like the way the role of the XO is being presented; she is shown as having to make real decisions (whether she is prepared or not) and not just as someone who is Archer's assistant or stand-in. Soval as a voice of reason and their conversation being in Vulcan was a nice touch as well.

I was reminded of a reason why this couldn't be part of the Endeavour continuity: Hess is gone.

[Alelou]

I'm about to head off to NJ, but I have a question.

Rigil, is DP really, fundamentally, a finale fix? Or do you see it more as a 'reset' button for the whole series?

After "Future Tense" I thought I might catch up with you (it feels a little weird to be hitting missing scenes of the same episodes at around the same time), but you're leaping past some of them so I'll probably never overtake you now. Reading all this about "Cogenitor" here is kind of weird because I've had that one sitting in the bank since the beginning of my Season Two efforts. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to write it, so I did it early. It was the episode I most dreaded because, frankly, I just don't think they wrote Trip in character in that episode. Or Archer. Or even T'Pol, really. Although it's a fascinating SF premise, I find that one just about impossible to watch. So I really like your version because it solves all that.

[Rigil Kent]

Kelby had the moral high ground here and I am surprised at Starfleet officers being so... docile. There is not an O-4 who I know who would have rolled and accepted what he accepted. The common first statement would have been, "I respectfully request Court Martial and I respectfully request counsel". After that there would have been a closed door session with Hernandez that would have been along the lines of - "if you file charges, I'll file charges. Yes, I did violate a direct order but it was an illegal order. So therefore, Commander, try on Conduct Unbecoming, Official Oppression and Conspiracy. In the Captain's case you can add Dereliction, as there are no written first contact procedures, Ma'am. By the time this hits the media, you won't even command an earth space junk retrieval scow, Ma'am."

That's a very interesting take on it, Nav, and I'll freely admit that it wasn't really my intention. I think one of the biggest points I'll have to disagree with you is that they likely do have some written first contact procedures - they just aren't very good ones (which is slowly being corrected.) I also wanted to highlight the fact that Kelby isn't all that experienced when it comes to being Out There (he's basically been a lab monkey for most of his career), so that's why he accepted the punishment so easily. Add in the fact that he's floundering in guilt over the cogenitor's suicide, so he believes that he deserves this punishment. Morally, I agree that he had the high ground, but I don't entirely agree that Hernandez's instruction for him to stop doing what he was doing was an illegal order. Based on what we saw, we really don't know what the exact nature of the cogenitor's status in Vissian culture apart from an implication that they're treated as 2nd class citizens, so judging them entirely using human-centric mores is going to inevitably cause problems.

And I'm really not sure that either Starfleet or Kelby would want this to get out to the media either, not with them still trying to recover from the dual catastrophes at Paraagan or Ekos (atomic detonation, anyone?)

Plus? Kelby isn't a Dick Winters by any stretch of the imagination.

Every time I read the chapter, I am less and less fond of Hernandez. I think the only reason she is having anxiety at the beginning is she can see her career evaporating if she can't get Kelby to be the fall guy.

Not my intention, actually. She's suffering anxiety because she's basically scuttling his career because he disregarded a direct order.

But then I think we can both agree that Starfleet is flat out screwed up.

Now my viewpoint is somewhat colored by "cold war thinking". I remember the Russian Merchant Mariners who defected to the USGC cutter getting pulled off back to the Soviet ship and beaten while the Coasties stood and watched. It seems analogous.

Again, not really my intention. Charles committed suicide - he/she/it wasn't beaten or murdered or further mistreated.

Rigil one more question, why do you think Erika's emotional reaction to what she had to do has a baring on her abilities as an officer? She is a human being, it was a normal reaction. Now if it had crippled her I would understand but it didn't do that. She was compassionate and empathetic but it didn't hinder her in what she had to do.

She spent hours angsting over the only course of action available for her. And will continue to angst over it, which is going to have a deleterious effect on her abilities.

Rigil, is DP really, fundamentally, a finale fix? Or do you see it more as a 'reset' button for the whole series?

Neither really. Just a "divergent" timeline (an AU, if you will) where events unfold similarly, but not entirely the same way.

After "Future Tense" I thought I might catch up with you (it feels a little weird to be hitting missing scenes of the same episodes at around the same time), but you're leaping past some of them so I'll probably never overtake you now.

Yeah, I'm entering Season 3 with the stuff not yet published and have completely skipped over a couple of episodes entirely.

[WarpGirl]

Well correct me if I'm wrong Rigil but I've heard some very decorated and revered military leaders, have "angsted" over the decisions they had to make, some for much longer than a few hours. Plus this is the first time Erika has made decisions of this kind, correct? I don't find her reaction unreasonable. However, if she does let this cripple her in the future then I will agree that she probably isn't the best of officers yet.

[Navigator]

But then I think we can both agree that Starfleet is flat out screwed up.

And a big Amen! there.

Plus? Kelby isn't a Dick Winters by any stretch of the imagination.

And certainly no disagreement there. I didn't express it well, but my thoughts were that he would be much more the type to not shut up and take it. That, seeing his career in tatters, he would have no problem taking everybody else's with him. And he would bet that they or Starfleet would back down and give him a cushy desk job someplace.

Charles committed suicide - he/she/it wasn't beaten or murdered or further mistreated.

But in some respects Charles committed suicide to avoid a future of mistreatment. (I may be wrong; I have sort of forgotten that episode.)

This was a great chapter. Great chapters engender a lot of conversation. Please understand I can see every bit of this happening. I am probably a greater misanthrope anyone could ever aspire to, and sort of ascribe darker motives to what happ

[WarpGirl]

How is Starfleet screwed up?

[Thot]

The Vissians technology was insanely advanced for the time, they made the Vulcans look backward. So they had the ability to blast Enterprise out of the stars no problem. Trip or in this case Kelby's actions could have been taken as a hostile act of war. They were interfering with the Vissians reproduction, (even if they were morally right to do so) that's serious business! Suppose they hadn't been a peaceful race? It just completely bugs me that any member of the senior staff wouldn't take that into consideration. And nobody mentioned that.

Hey, Archer attacked... I stress the point once again ATTACKED a Tandaran prison camp and still Earth isn't at war with Tandarans or Archer is a convicted prisoner, who escaped from Rura Pente plus the man in charge of Earth's flagship and still the Klingons and Earth aren't at war.
So: Yes, it is a point you could stress, but nothing new to this mess of interfering in other cultures.

One of the things I was very glad about in this chapter is that Kelby was properly disciplined, (unlike Trip) and he will have the guidence he needs and the support (hopefully) to get through the emotional toll of the cogenitor's sucide.

You can say this, but if they had done this in the aired version then it would be the icing on the cake, since it would be soooooo hypocritical to let Archer ruin the contacts with the Klingons/Tandarans/Eska without him getting at least a reprimand from Head Quarters and Trip gets dressed down after pulling off the same mess.
In addition he didn't break any rules or disobeyed an order. Officially we have never heared in the series, that a First Contact protocol exists, although I think Rigil's assumption like 'It does, but it's lousy and don't catch this kind of incidents' fits better.

[Rigil Kent]

How is Starfleet screwed up?

Honestly, how isn't it? They evidently sent a crew ostensibly made up of their best and brightest (under a substandard commanding officer who honestly seemed to have his position due to nepotism; with a chief engineer who was slotted to be first officer but had hardly been off-world and displayed a poor grasp of both leadership and general competence early on; a security officer who apparently wasn't able to actually put his foot down when it came to dealing with his CO in matters of security; a communications officer who didn't want to be there in the first place and was initially written as a coward; a Boomer helmsman who should have had the most deep-space experience of the lot but appeared to be a functional mute, a Vulcan first officer whose position in the chain-of-command was shaky at best since she wasn't Starfleet and, like the security officer, seemed incapable of telling the captain when he was wrong; and a doctor they had to pull from a different organization because Starfleet was apparently incapable of filling the CMO slot) into deep-space exploration without proper preparation (no actual first contact protocols, limited comprehension of what was Out There, defensive weapon systems that were not only untested but also mostly ineffective, etc.) At no time, when the command crew thoroughly screwed the pooch (usually the captain, but also the ChEng and the security officer on numerous occasions) were there any actual ramifications for their rampant stupidity. There was no defensive presence around Earth when the Xindi attacked and their idea of a response was to send the before-mentioned poorly equipped science ship with equally badly equipped MACOs (no helmets? no body armor? no actual military training? a Boy Scout troop could kick the MACO's asses in a firefight) into hostile territory without any back-up in the slightest, all on the off chance that the above-mentioned substandard commanding officer would be able to pull a Main Character trick out of his proverbial hat.

And that's just the Starfleet of the ENT era. The other eras had just as many issues of competence. Thus, I remain convinced that the first casualty of the Eugenics War was common sense. If the bad guys in Trek had been written competently and weren't intentionally gimped so the Heroes could emerge triumphant, I have serious doubts Starfleet could ever win a single battle. Ever.

[Navigator]

Spot on. Summed up in one paragraph. And the sad part is that with a very small increase in "thinking" by its creators, they could have had an ER or West Wing quality show. If someone had just duct taped them to a chair and made them watch Band of Brothers or Saving Private Ryan a few times it would have helped.

[Thot]

@ Rigil

Yes, essentially you are right. Well I could start to say, that I see some aspects you pointed out differently or they could be explained.
But far more important: Very much of it, is caused by the budget restriction of the studios: body armor, helms for the MACOs? might be realistic but unnecessary for the story => skip it
To blame only the creators/writers is from my point of view too easy.

If someone had just duct taped them to a chair and made them watch Band of Brothers or Saving Private Ryan a few times it would have helped.

Sorry but this comparison is sooooo lame: If would have given Berman and Braga the same budget as those production, I think they would have made also some things quite different.
I mean "Saving Private Ryan" had a budget of 90 Million Dollars! For producing under 3 hours! And Band of Brothers had a budget of $125 million, which comes to an average of $12.5 million per episode! Okay every episode was about 70 minutes, but still...

I don't know how much a season of Enterprise did cost, but for sure far less than 3-digit million dollar sums! And they had to fill about 1000 minutes of story.

For example the death of T'Les: The writer Mike Sussman and the producer didn't want to kill her, but the studio didn't want to pay for Joanna Cassidy once again => so she got killed. Or the last scene in Kir'Shara, where the influence of the Romulans on the VHC is revealed: The brass of Paramount was already determined to simply delete the scene, because they didn't want to pay a new actor, who was planned by Mike Sussman to appear for the first time (perhaps T'Pol's father?). So instead the producers picked one of the costums of the Romulans from the movie 'Nemesis', put in the actor, who was orginally only planned to play the leader of the patrol, which escorted T'Pol away, and shoved V'Las with him into a standard cave setting to rescue this last scene.

To make my point clear:
Yes, they should have thought more about realism.
Yes, they have some inconsistencies in their plots.
Yes, the creators should have listen more to the advises from other people.
And yes, they could still have made some things better in their improvisation, but how do you say this in English: In hindsight it is always a 20/20 vision? *Is this correct?*


And I might add: If you want to see more realism, simply look at Rigil Kent's stories.
I hope this doesn't sound too much, as if I want to suck up...

[Thot]

@ Rigil

Yes, essentially you are right. Well I could start to say, that I see some aspects you pointed out differently or they could be explained.
But far more important: Very much of it, is caused by the budget restriction of the studios: body armor, helms for the MACOs? might be realistic but unnecessary for the story => skip it
To blame only the creators/writers is from my point of view too easy.

If someone had just duct taped them to a chair and made them watch Band of Brothers or Saving Private Ryan a few times it would have helped.

Sorry but this comparison is sooooo lame: If would have given Berman and Braga the same budget as those production, I think they would have made also some things quite different.
I mean "Saving Private Ryan" had a budget of 90 Million Dollars! For producing under 3 hours! And Band of Brothers had a budget of $125 million, which comes to an average of $12.5 million per episode! Okay every episode was about 70 minutes, but still...

I don't know how much a season of Enterprise did cost, but for sure far less than 3-digit million dollar sums! And they had to fill about 1000 minutes of story, what is more than 6 times the length of "Saving Private Ryan". And Enterprise wasn't ment to air in cinemas all over the world.

For example the death of T'Les: The writer Mike Sussman and the producer didn't want to kill her, but the studio didn't want to pay for Joanna Cassidy once again => so she got killed. Or the last scene in Kir'Shara, where the influence of the Romulans on the VHC is revealed: The brass of Paramount was already determined to simply delete the scene, because they didn't want to pay a new actor, who was planned by Mike Sussman to appear for the first time (perhaps T'Pol's father?). So instead the producers picked one of the costums of the Romulans from the movie 'Nemesis', put in the actor, who was orginally only planned to play the leader of the patrol, which escorted T'Pol away, and shoved V'Las with him into a standard cave setting to rescue this last scene.

To make my point clear:
Yes, they should have thought more about realism.
Yes, they have some inconsistencies in their plots.
Yes, the creators should have listen more to the advises from other people.
And yes, they could still have made some things better in their improvisation, but how do you say this in English: In hindsight it is always a 20/20 vision? *Is this correct?*


And I might add: If you want to see more realism, simply look at Rigil Kent's stories.
I hope this doesn't sound too much, as if I want to suck up...

EDIT: Sorry, for this. I wanted to add something but instead I pushed the quote buttom.
Since I don't find a buttom to delete it myself, could somebody else do it?
Once again, I'm sorry. Or simply blind to find the right buttom.

[panyasan]

I think there isn't a delele button, but you can use the edit button to edit the post. If you posted double - you can edit your post with the remark "sorry double post". It mostly happens to me when I hit the submit button and my computer is soooo slow (and I am impatient person) I hit the submit button again.

[Rigil Kent]

Very much of it, is caused by the budget restriction of the studios: body armor, helms for the MACOs?

Just visit the nearest Army Surplus Store for either. For that matter, I can think of any number of canceled television shows or Paramount movies that would have these props already in storage. Pull 'em out, blow the dust off 'em, maybe apply a different paint scheme, voila. Problem solved.

might be realistic but unnecessary for the story

How is it unnecessary? They were clearly trying to portray the MACOs as the equivalent of an Army Special Forces A-Team or a Navy SEAL team, so putting even a modicum of thought into the sort of equipment and apparel (or training and tactics) they'd require would seem quite necessary IMO. Which is why the MACOs will be portrayed a little differently when I finally get around to introducing them...

If someone had just duct taped them to a chair and made them watch Band of Brothers or Saving Private Ryan a few times it would have helped.

Sorry but this comparison is sooooo lame: If would have given Berman and Braga the same budget as those production, I think they would have made also some things quite different.
I mean "Saving Private Ryan" had a budget of 90 Million Dollars! For producing under 3 hours! And Band of Brothers had a budget of $125 million, which comes to an average of $12.5 million per episode! Okay every episode was about 70 minutes, but still...

I think you're missing his point. He isn't talking about the budget, but about the leadership lessons that could be learned from either case. Take "Band of Brothers," for example. If they had studied it, imagine how much cooler Jonathan Archer could have been if he was cast in a more Dick Winters mold? They constantly tried to imply that his crew would walk through fire for Archer, but we saw no reason why. With Dick Winters, we saw it on the screen why his troops were willing to throw themselves on grenades for the man. It isn't a matter of the budget, but rather what a real leader is like.