A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

[honeybee]

Vis a vie the mate sharing, that is what I was thinking, Alelou. All I said was that in a life or death situation where it would be illogical/dangerous to let someone die, I think mate sharing is plausible. And don't think a the bond would preclude that - whether the bonded couple was acting out of affection for a dying friend or self-preservation (say if they were on a deep space mission and it was the ship's doctor or engineer in pon farr). Nobody has to agree with me. We're not talking about 70s style swinging here (ew) - we're talking about saving someone's life. And I totally agree the whole fighting to death think in Amok Time was a plot contrivance. I always did respect that T'Pol didn't call a fight to the death in home, because she didn't want to risk Trip's life or Koss's for that matter. (I had an idea for a fic where she would do that - sort of an AU thing - maybe I'll write it someday. The idea didn't involve Koss.)

No worries, bluetiger. I wrote the Lizzie/Archer ship hoping it would polarize people. I'm glad it does. Here's how it came about.

Originally, I had Lizzie getting raped in the palace - by Travis while Hoshi watched, amused - but Lizzie had such a bad end in the RU - I didn't want that in the MU for her. Plus I had Phlox basically raping and abusing Liz Cutler and Malcolm raping Talas - and thought that was enough. I didn't want things too harsh.

I also didn't want to create an OC to be Lizzie's foil/co-conspirator in the palace - so I resurrected Archer. And rather than have her get raped - I had her coerced into having sex with him - but I at least gave her the choice. It's certainly not designed to be a conventional romance. It's supposed to be f-ed up.

I've also tried to make it clear that Archer isn't a rapist. In the scene where he gropes T'Pol, he's clearly asking her for permission - and doesn't get it, obviously. As far as Archer's concerned, that makes him a gentleman. It's a world where rape is common, after all. But he is a pig - and he's really not good enough for Lizzie. It's just proximity that has drawn her to him - she's in a desperate situation with few choices. And she's a young woman who has deprived herself of physically affection and gone reclusive, suddenly put in a situation where she's emotionally depending on someone she knows she can't trust and knows is dangerous. Put great sex in there, and it's a combustible situation.

[pdsldl]

BT I'm not a fan of the Archer/Lizzie thing either. I can see Stockholm syndrome causing one to overlook the horror of what someone had done to you but that takes time. But then there are people who j=have lower standrads for what is acceptable to them and in a MU universe Archer may be the best of what's available. Maybe she'll dump him if she gets rescued and finds someone more worthy. And it's not a big enough problem to forego reading the story. Honeybee writes great stories and I just read enough of the parts I can't deal with to keep the storyline going so I can enjoy the rest.

[bluetiger]

We do seem to have two camps on the Lizzie/Archer deal

pdsldl, I agree, nothing could make me stop reading either. It is an excellent story and Honeybee is great.

[honeybee]

Thanks for the props everyone. I am glad people are responding to the story.

A couple of other thoughts:

During the Archer gropes T'Pol scene, I do try and spin it that not only is he asking for her permission - he thinks he's doing her a favor. He's offering her career advancement, the protection of the Captain and sex. As far as he's concerned, it's a win/win. He knows she's had sex with Tucker but doesn't understand that it was pon farr or why she chose Tucker (she likes him, a bizarre concept in the MU). He thinks he's offering her a step up by offering himself.

And now that he's been saved by Lizzie, he's definitely in love with her. Completely. But she's not certain what she feels for him, because she recognizes who he is.

And I also think that in the RU, had they ever met, Lizzie and Hoshi, who are probably around the same age, would have been fast friends. I think they both recognize that - and it makes both of them a little sad.

[panyasan]

What I read and heard about polyandry, it mostly is a complicated relationship that doesn't make the women in the relationship very happy. On Earth I think almost every poly-relationship is man with a couple of women. Man don't like to share their wife/wives, this is a general trait, seen in every culture. So I kind of liked that Honeybee is refering to this complexity in her fic. It becomes even more complicated when you have 4 sexes to bring an Andorian child into the world: it's a miracle there all still around. , especially when you consider the proud and possisive nature of Andorians.

I totally agree with the presumption that Vulcans are heterosexual and monogamous. My idea is that there is also a biological reason for this: they are touch telepaths and have a mental bond with the bond mate. So a bonded Vulcan having a sexual relationship outside the bond is like a woman walking in to the bedroom and seeing her husband doing it with some one else. It's even more: As for a Vulcan not only seeing, but also sensing and feeling his emotions, while sharing himself with some one else. Add the strong jaloursy and possiveness of Vulcans towards their mate, it makes perfectly sense that Vulcans would be completly monogamous and that only the suggestion of a sexual relationship would provoke emotional problems with a Vulcan.

Lizzie/Archer: I don't think Lizzie is in the relationship with Archer because she is suffering from a trauma of being held hostage. From the beginning she is taken charge of her own life, is melding Archer into an aid and wasn't forced to sleep with him. She is able to keep secrets from him and make up her own mind. I agree that she would be better off with some one else.
As for Archer: he is a pig, as Honeybee so gentle put it, and I think also that when he groped T'Pol he did it also because he wanted to get back at Tucker (I get her the same as you) and pure for lust. But he seem to soften up at bit in his relationship with Lizzie: he seems have feelings, the first in a long time, and this from a man who never had any or frozen them as quickly as they raise. This doesn't mean he is still a force that can turn ugly for Lizzie. I hope I make some sense.

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, do you know when you rnext birthday is? If a vulcan male has Pon Farr every seven years it is easy for him to extrapolate from his last to his next on to his last. Every seven years. No problem. why spock was out in space is beyond me. Unless this was his first Pon Farr.

So, a vulcan would know when his next Pon Farr would occur and when he would be assigned aboard a ship that would be taken into cnsideration. it woud be illogical not to.

Not sure if vulcans have a leap day or aleap year. but I am assuming that they have a very accruate calendar. so, calculating a males Pon Farrs in advance would be very easy.

The only problem would be if a male was assigned to a Survey ship whch would be entering unknown territory. Anything could happen to it and they could get stranded then the Pon Farr issue would be important. It may be that the Vulcans might have Pirestess aboard to service males who are stranded away from vulcan when their Pon Farr comes around.

Remember in voyager the Vulcan Male aboard that ship was stranded and could not possibly get to vulcan or to a Vulcan female so he opted for Torres. who said thanks but no thanks. I still believe that the doctors option of a Holodeck female vulcan was the perfect answer to the problem.

[Aquarius]

^There's nothing canonically that says the first pon farr occurs at an age that is divisible evenly by seven; only that it occurs at seven year intervals.

Women get their periods every 28-30 days or so. That doesn't mean we get the first one when we're 28-30 days old.

And, as with all things biological and hormonal, I'm sure there's room for "irregularity" and "individual mileage varies."

[Alelou]

Which was precisely my point. Biological cycles are seldom so precise as to be something you can write on your calendar with confidence.

I agree that presumably by a second one, a guy would make sure he had his mate somewhere within easy reach around the time expected.

[pdsldl]

In Amok Time didn't Spock say he and whatever his mates name was were bonded so when it was time they would be drawn to come home to wed? That says to me the first time they didn't know when it would happen and there were others in space who experienced pon farr they may have a vague idea but not an exact time.

With the Archer /Lizzie thing. I would feel more comfortable if Archer had suffered before he's allowed to be redeemed in any measure. Never like it when the bad guy is allowed to suddenly be let off the hook because a good woman likes/loves him. They do that in shows/books all the time and it's just not realistic or fair in my book.

[honeybee]

Well. . .Archer was brainwashed, drugged and tortured to the point where he barely remembered who he used to be and could barely muster a coherent sentence. And then he was enslaved. So, I count that as suffering.

But remember, now that his brains are back, Lizzie recognizes that he's a loose canon.

[Aquarius]

Which was precisely my point. Biological cycles are seldom so precise as to be something you can write on your calendar with confidence.

I agree that presumably by a second one, a guy would make sure he had his mate somewhere within easy reach around the time expected.

Right. There's probably an "average age" when it happens, so you know to look for the signs, etc., but no hard and fast rule. Going back to my example about human girls, the last time I read up on the subject it said the average age the first cycle happens is twelve...but I've heard of it happening as young as nine and as late as 15 or 16. I don't think a young lady is going to feel very confident if she gets told to predict its onset by counting from her birthday in 28 day increments.

The duration of Blood Fever is probably long enough that, before warp flight, most men could get to their mates in time if they'd been separated. The bond is what lets them know. As Alelou says, after the first time, that's when it makes sense to start watching the calendar, but like human women, it may even be fair to say that it might take a couple of times before you get "regulated" and know what's normal for you.

[pdsldl]

Which was precisely my point. Biological cycles are seldom so precise as to be something you can write on your calendar with confidence.

I agree that presumably by a second one, a guy would make sure he had his mate somewhere within easy reach around the time expected.

Right. There's probably an "average age" when it happens, so you know to look for the signs, etc., but no hard and fast rule. Going back to my example about human girls, the last time I read up on the subject it said the average age the first cycle happens is twelve...but I've heard of it happening as young as nine and as late as 15 or 16. I don't think a young lady is going to feel very confident if she gets told to predict its onset by counting from her birthday in 28 day increments.

The duration of Blood Fever is probably long enough that, before warp flight, most men could get to their mates in time if they'd been separated. The bond is what lets them know. As Alelou says, after the first time, that's when it makes sense to start watching the calendar, but like human women, it may even be fair to say that it might take a couple of times before you get "regulated" and know what's normal for you.

And for some it never happens. I started at 14 then had a cycle every 2-3 months for 12-15 days. I didn't regulate until they put me on the pill at 16, so nature can be very fickle so one can only assume that it might be the same for Vulcans, with something that was so emotionally based and outside of their normal logic and control.

[Silverbullet]

My Daughter started at 10 1/2 When she reached College age she found out that she was not a "Candidate" for the Pill she had some sort of reaction to it,

She is pretty Regular. but of coursse there is a natural progression since some months have 31 days, others 30 and one 28. But she is careful and knows just about when her menstral cycle ends and her Period begins.

For Vulcan Males. It think it would depend on their Calendar. How many days in their year. How accurate is the Calendar. Aboard ship the time and days would be kept accurateluy. I simply cannot see how a vulcan male could not predict when his Pon Farr would begin. He would have to be vastly stupid not to know it If his life depended on mating during the "Blood Fever" he would know when and be on Vulcan or have his mate with him. Logical.

[Alelou]

One of the ironies of going through assisted reproduction is that they ALWAYS begin by putting you on the pill to regulate your cycle. They're not going to waste all that time and money trying to guess what your body is going to do and when. It's too unpredictable -- especially when you're stressed out.

I use a calendar only so I can answer that "when was your last MP" question, not because it has ever done me much good in predicting when the next one will come. This is only getting worse with age. I have far better ways of guessing (sleeplessness, general bitchiness, and salt cravings), but just like weather this is only good for forecasting a few days out. There's never been any long-term planning for me. Thus my suspicion of anyone who thinks you can just write this stuff on a calendar with any degree of certainty.

[Asso]

I have to say that it sounds not much logical that the logical Vulcan males are unable to know the period of their cycles, as far as unpredictable they can be.