Arranged marriages and Vulcan arranged marriages

[WarpGirl]

Warpgirl, you may advocate violence and believe women (or people for that matter) should be compelled to defend themselves by violence and if they fail - that sex be coerced from them.

Honeybee I believe nothing of the sort. And if I thought you actually cared about what I believe I would tell you but I don't think you care. But such a statement is outrageous because we're talking about fiction and if you had any canonical evidence at all that anyone in the ST thought Kali'fee was wrong I'd love you to share it.

[Silverbullet]

No commment on what I said: Spock gave his property, T'Pring, to Ston by saying "she is yours" If he had not then T'Pring would remain his property and would have to marry him and satisfy his Pon Farrs as they happened. She would have no more choice than any piece of property. To the Victor belongs the spoils and that seems to be true in the Vulcan society. Spocks gives T'Pring to Ston just as he might give Ston a watch or a book. She is Spocks property by right of Conmbat. She has no say in the matter she took a gamble in order to try getting out of a situation not of her doing. Had Spock insised she would have lost. As it was he gave her to Ston,

[honeybee]

Honeybee I believe nothing of the sort. And if I thought you actually cared about what I believe I would tell you but I don't think you care. But such a statement is outrageous because we're talking about fiction and if you had any canonical evidence at all that anyone in the ST thought Kali'fee was wrong I'd love you to share it.

No, you just think its okay to call a fictional woman the most degrading and offensive words if she's is coerced by violence into marriage and chooses to be with the person she loves even after she's abandoned by her "spouse". I'm simply saying that I sympathize with her position, believe that all sentient (fictional or not) beings have the right to autonomy over their body and minds without the threat of violence and that Vulcan society, being a collectivist society, probably rarely deals with people who do not maintain the status quo and their marriage customs are not equipped to deal with the ugliness that can arise from the traditions. For the record, I think T'Pring was cold and manipulative and it doesn't speak well of her that she seemed to not care if Kirk or Spock died, but I think she was forced into that position by daring to have desires outside the mainstream.

And I don't have any evidence that Vulcans think this is wrong. I simply think they are wrong. And of course all of these characters are fiction. Are you saying that violence, rape, forced marraige and coercion is okay in fiction? Because fiction or not, it's not okay. Neither is it to force a male into the position where he is forcing a woman in sex or dies. Or even forcing him into a marriage at all.

And Silverbullet, I'm with you. Thinking of Spock giving T'Pring to Stonn makes me wince. She should have been able to give herself - even if it is a rare thing to do and most Vulcans are happy with their arranged matches.

[Kotik]

Honeybee I believe nothing of the sort. And if I thought you actually cared about what I believe I would tell you but I don't think you care. But such a statement is outrageous because we're talking about fiction and if you had any canonical evidence at all that anyone in the ST thought Kali'fee was wrong I'd love you to share it.

Listen, dear. You're losing the plot here. Some of your comments have been way out of line. Please stop calling fictional characters or forum members nasty names. My own views in some areas are as controversial as yours, but it's not worth to get into an argument about everything. This has been started as a thread about arranged marriage and along the way we've been at prostitution, circumsizing (or however the <expletive> that is spelt) and we're now at calling each other mucho unflattering names. Just cool it sweetheart.

Peace, Kotik

[crystalswolf]

SB, Spock's "She is yours" could have been equivalent to "Well, she's your problem now" where it had nothing to do with handing over property but the acknowledgment that Stonn could be with her without Spock's interference. Truth be told, I'd say the same thing if I knew someone had that kind of cold and calculating logic for whatever reason. I guess that would be the shining example of what a Vulcan should be?

[honeybee]

You're right, CW. She's all yours, could be just reflective of Spock's relief at being rid of a wife he never wanted in the first place. I still think, however, Spock shows admiration and respect for her application of logic in a crappy situation - something that Kirk most certainly doesn't get. There is cultural misunderstanding all over this episode.

But I think it is telling that even in the 1960s, the writers devised an "out" that did not involve anyone actually fighting to the death and/or T'Pring and Spock being forced to marry.

[Alelou]

I'm just gonig to point out a couple of things, having caught up on this wild-eyed thread fairly quickly.

1) Vulcans are deeply embarrassed by pon farr and keep the details secret from outworlders. This suggests that even they realize it really doesn't bear scrutiny by other advanced civilizations. Vulcans think of themselves as the most advanced society in the galaxy, so it's kind of ironic that they have this one giant communal blind spot, but I don't find that unbelievable, especially given the physiology of pon farr and the reality that ALL cultures have embarrassing underbellies.

2) T'Pol said that she herself was "negotiating" with Koss's family over the marriage -- for example, that she could leave for the first year instead of sticking around. This suggests to me that the choices are not quite so brutally black and white as some are suggesting here. Just the fact that she was able to decide to put off the wedding under the original pressure from Koss's parents without suddenly becoming persona non grata to the High Command also suggests that. There must be mechanisms that would allow people to sometimes back out of these arrangements, or fulfill them in name only, or kind of slide out of them over time, or whatever. This is why I still think there was a deeper political motivation to this particular marriage -- one that no longer existed once T'Pau rose to power.

T'Pring may have also felt that she was a pawn, perhaps because of Spock's father's prominence or Spock's legendary status, but she responded with cold, self-interested logic and perhaps a bit of political hostility towards humans. (And I can't imagine the T'Pau we know from Ent would have had any serious problem with that.)

[Aquarius]

Yes, T'Pol negotiated with his family, but there's nothing implying that this is typical. Otherwise, why wouldn't T'Pring simply have negotiated with Spock's?

Same with the notion of T'Pol fighting Koss herself. We know she only said it because she figured Trip would probably bite it if he had to fight on Vulcan soil, and she's not going to pick another guy and risk ending up with him. So she brazenly declares she'll fight Koss herself...but Koss calls her on it, knowing why she did it, and really, we all have a pretty good idea that it would've been pretty scandalous if T'Pol had actually tried to go through with such a thing.

[Alelou]

T'Pol offered to fight Koss herself? Where did it say that? I thought she merely suggested that she would call the challenge, which isn't very specific. (And I was truly surprised by that twist when I read that in Aardarshinah's story.) And Koss's calm reaction suggests to me he might not be the wussy architect we like to imagine him as -- he wasn't a short little puny guy, at any rate.

Maybe T'Pring tried to negotiate and they were having none of it. You can only negotiate if people are willing. Sarek was in a kind of weird position, with a half-human son. Maybe it had been hard to get a betrothal in the first place.

(Speaking of which, where the heck were Spock's parents in "Amok Time"? Not imagined yet? I can't remember the order of stories there.)

I doubt negotiation would be very typical because most Vulcans would content themselves with their betrothed, as I thought you suggested earlier. But it must be an option -- or at least was in those Ent days.

[honeybee]

And as much as we see "negotiations" to allow T'Pol to keep her career - we still see heavy, heavy social pressure put on T'Pol to straighten up, fly right and be a good little girl and do as she's told. She's far more ethical than T'Pring, in that I believe she would rather not see Koss or Trip dead as the price of her freedom. Again, I'll say that given T'Pol's drug addiction, brain trauma, latent bond with Trip and complete and total desire NOT to marry Koss - she's coerced in Home. But I also think T'les has her best interest at heart, which is a by product of their culture.

I also never understood the line in home as offering herself as a challenger but just in general threatening to declare a challenge - and I'm pretty sure that Voyager implied that a woman fighting for herself was very rare. Although, Tuvok does specifically say it is a woman's right to fight for herself.

But, the same Voyager episode has Vorik declaring the kal-if-fee and challenging Paris - so it's clear that men in Pon Farr can declare a challenge as sure as a female can. AND he declares a challenge for a woman with whom he is not betrothed and who has rejected him in favor of another man. Paris offers to fight for her, but Torres chooses to fight for herself, as a Klingon would.


edited to add:


From Chrissies' Transcript site, the scene from Home. To me, her threat to call the kal-if-fee is vague and a bluff. He calls her on it. He's also being a manipulative pr*ck by referencing what happened to her mother without details and not listening to her.

"KOSS: I want to hear about your life aboard the human ship. You must have many fascinating stories.
T'POL: Why are you here?
KOSS: The answer should be obvious.
T'POL: You've received my letters. You know I'm not interested in marriage.
KOSS: The decision isn't ours alone. My parents believe in the old traditions. For them, a betrothal cannot simply be dismissed.
T'POL: You have the option of choosing another mate.
KOSS: I don't want another mate.
T'POL: You should be aware I've been ill recently.
KOSS: Ill?
T'POL: It could take some time for me to recover, assuming it's even possible.
KOSS: I can help. My father's a man of influence. I knows the finest doctors in the province. I intend to go through with this.
T'POL: What if I declare the kal-if-fee?
KOSS: Is that what you want? A fight to the death? Perhaps your human friend would make a suitable challenger.
T'POL: You find this amusing.
KOSS: No. Call a challenger if you wish. I'll do whatever's necessary.
T'POL: It's best if you leave.
KOSS: I may be able to help your mother.
T'POL: What do you mean?
KOSS: My father could have her reinstated.
T'POL: She retired.
KOSS: She was asked to resign.
T'POL: Why?
KOSS: I've said more than I should. If we were to marry, you'd only have to live on Vulcan for one year. You could resume your career with Starfleet after that.
T'POL: Is that what you want, an absent wife?
KOSS: I'd want you to be happy.
T'POL: You should go. "

[Aquarius]

Okay, honeybee beat me to posting the passage from the transcripts! Any way, now that I see it, I think the thing about T'Pol fighting him herself might've come from a well-crafted piece of fanon.

Still--the passage is clear that T'Pol doesn't have much of a choice. It's all about Koss and what he/his family wants. She says *he* has the option to choose another mate...and he's clear about not wanting another one. So she's stuck.

As for the Tuvok thing...that *is* 200 years after T'Pol's time. Maybe the Vulcans had seen their way toward being at least that progressive?

[aadarshinah]

As for the Tuvok thing...that *is* 200 years after T'Pol's time. Maybe the Vulcans had seen their way toward being at least that progressive?

True. V'Las's Vulcan was not the Vulcan of Tuvok's time. Or Spock's. And considering the wonders that V'Las did while in goverment, it's only likely things became more liberal, up to and including marriage.

[Silverbullet]

I still do no now why T'Pol did not tell Koss she had mated with Trip. That would have been a deal breaker. If she told Koss before he mentioned Mama I believe he would not have brought it up but walked out on T'Pol

I still wonder about that Letter from Koss that was waiting for T-Pol. I doubt if T'Pol told anyone but Mama she was coming to Vulcan so how did Koss know she was coming to write that letter. Also think Mother was lying to T-Pol because she wouldn't look at T'Pol while talking to her about Trip and T'Pol becoming a couple. Mama often wouldn't meet T'Pol's Eyes. Believe that Mother, Koss and his family were in it together to coerce T'Pol in to the marriage.

[Aquarius]

I still do no now why T'Pol did not tell Koss she had mated with Trip. That would have been a deal breaker. If she told Koss before he mentioned Mama I believe he would not have brought it up but walked out on T'Pol

Because the thing about her mother came up before she played that card?

[honeybee]

My guess is that Koss, just like T'Les, knew that T'Pol wasn't going to bring a male "friend" home to meet her mother. He knew something was going on, but he wanted her anyway. I think knowing about the bond would have made a difference, but nobody knew about that.

So, they certainly didn't know they were bonded. Humans, as T'Pol is well aware, do not mate for life. As written, it seemed that neither Trip or T'Pol was sure enough of their relationship to risk whatever social consequences would be hers if she didn't submit to the blackmail and marry Koss. Trip seems concerned she's being forced, but he also seems to respect her enough not to press the issue. I've always liked the fact that he's the only person who actually listens to her and respects her wishes in the whole episode, even though its frustrating that he doesn't push harder.

I also think there would have been just as much conflict if TnT had arrived engaged or married - and she had had to deal with those consequences. But there we are.