Arranged marriages and Vulcan arranged marriages

[Asso]

For many reasons, as far as it can be reasonable, the scenario that Crystalwolf wrote gave me gooseflesh.

[crystalswolf]

I give you CW's magnificent story Let'thieri, which I had the privilege of betaing. I hope she doesn't mind me sharing that she originally titled it "The Courtesan" - since the main character's life work is helping Vulcan men without mates get through their pon farr. I argued that even the term "Courtesan" was too loaded, that the heroine was providing an essential service to Vulcan society. She is saving lives and doing so with grace, dignity and compassion for her clients. To put the kind of hateful judgments that some humans would attach to the concept of prostitution seemed utterly wrong to me. She's a priestess with a sacred duty. I can't recommend the story highly enough, as it shows Vulcans at their best when dealing with the worst, most vulnerable time of their lives.

Thanks Honeybee. I don't mind bringing up the beta title at all. As you know, the reason why I originally chose that title was because most cultures we have today do not have a term for this ceremonial function and would simply consider it prostitution. I tried to work within those boundaries and find the most respected term used for these women throughout history (at least that I could find) that most would recognize today and came up with "Courtesan". You did make a very solid case for them which is why I eventually did not give them a name. They are simply in the Order which makes sense because Vulcans never like to talk about such things, why would they even bother to name them aside from some ancient name long forgotten except by possibly a handful of Vulcans.

Personally, I've always thought that there were ways out of Vulcan marriages but were never explored on the shows. It's just when blood fever's involved, the choices are narrowed greatly because someone's life is at stake and at that point he (or she) only wants their target and nothing and no one else will do. The challenge, I've always seen it as the way to settle the matter because the inflicted Vulcan would wreak havoc on any Vulcan he came in contact with (especially betrothed) until death.

For T'Pring and women in her situation culturally and/or legally pressured into marriage at any stage, to me, they meant to show the underbelly of Vulcan society and they did. Period.

[Silverbullet]

Legalized Prostitution. In Germany Prostitution is legal. Females work in one area. they are given a health inspection once a week. They work in a street that is blocked off at each end with a Brick wall that is seperated so a male can walk through.

Even so, there are street walkers. women who for some reason work as a prostitute and give their earnings to a Pimp. those women face jail if caught but they still do it and still fork over thier earnings to the Pimp. why? Beats Hell out of me. But I have an idea that the same thing exists in other places where Prostitution is legal. working in a legal Cat House gives the female protection from disease, unruly customers (prostitution is probably one of the most dangerous professions around) and they don't have to give thier earnings to a Pimp.

Hate to say this but there are what are called "weekend Warriors" females who prostitute themselves on the weekend. A few females have worked thier way through college that way. Housewives supplement the family income. Some females do it so they can buy nice clothes. Those females don't have pimps but usually find an Escort service to work out of.

In the Vulcan society I have thought the Priestess would be females who have lost thier mate, or had been violated. They for some reason felt they could no longer take a mate but could provide a service sorely needed. Some would be assigned to Spaceships that expected to be in Space for a long time. Not all males on board would experiene Pon Farr at the same time and some never while the ship was in space. the Pristess could also be a counselor for the crew.

In my encyclopedia all it says is that Vulcans Experience Pon farr every seven years. It does NOT say that the male will die if it is not satisfied. I often wonder where that came from. Is it canon?

[crystalswolf]

SB, I think it was Spock and/or Tuvok. Don't have the time to confirm though.

[Distracted]

Okay. Let me play devil's advocate here. Everybody's assuming there's somehow a gender bias in Vulcan culture in favor of the male. But think about this. If everybody's betrothed in childhood and there's no way out but a challenge to the death then the boys have no choice either. Sexual preference wouldn't come into it since most people don't have an awareness of their sexual identity until later in childhood. Physical appearance wouldn't matter either. Marriages would be be based solely on social advantage/political concerns and on procreation. No assumption would be made that the partners necessarily need have anything but a cordial relationship with each other. It's even canon that Vulcans cohabitate for the first year to "establish a bond" and then ordinarily go their seperate ways until ponfarr occurs. So...

Honeybee's assumption that homosexual orientation would be a deal breaker isn't necessarily the case. Being sexually attracted to your spouse is a non-issue if ponfarr has you (and your spouse through the bond) so worked up that you'll mate with the nearest inanimate object. I would assume that traditionally persons who prefer same gender partners could have them if they chose to do so between ponfarrs (if they wanted to flout Surak's teaching and allow their behaviour to be ruled by animal instinct rather than logic) but they would also be expected to have a spouse with whom they procreated. The same might be true for persons who find their spouse objectionable for other reasons. So persons of either gender might find themselves in the position of being "forced" by custom to enter a relationship which is less than ideal. I personally think that the average Vulcan would follow the most logical course and do what was expected of them without all the torment and suffering that a human would go through in a similar situation. They wouldn't think of it as "slavery" or as "being forced" because that's just the way things are done. The species must go on. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one."

[honeybee]

I don't think anyone here is saying that most Vulcans would break off their arranged matches. It's pretty clear that doing so is rare, the debate is whether on not when the rare individual decides to object - if forcing them under duress is okay. It isn't.

And while in many human arranged marriages, homosexuality would probably not be a deal breaker, given they are entered for cultural family reasons or dynasty reasons - in those cases it's generally overlooked when the homosexual spouse seeks company elsewhere, especially in the case of males. Don't ask don't tell has always been around in that sense.

But it seems to me that Vulcans arrange marriages in a culture where outside friendship is looked down upon and that the affection between spouse and family is a primary reason for the match. Even thinking as a Vulcan, I would want my child to marry someone who had the capacity to develop primary affection for them. And if my child was a homosexual, I would not want to see them bound to a person for whom they could never fully develop affection for. I can believe, however, that there's enough diversity of opinion among Vulcans that not everyone would feel this way.

I've certainly heard the argument that gay men would make better husbands to most women, as long as sex/passion is sought elsewhere by both parties, but I'm old-fashioned. And while Vulcans seem to euphemistically call it affection - I think by affection they do mean romantic attachment.

[Aquarius]

Okay. Let me play devil's advocate here. Everybody's assuming there's somehow a gender bias in Vulcan culture in favor of the male. But think about this. If everybody's betrothed in childhood and there's no way out but a challenge to the death then the boys have no choice either.

Not true. When Koss's family got the news that T'Pol wasn't coming home right away, they blew a gasket and threatened to call the whole thing off. So it seems the male's family has at least that much power.

[honeybee]

That's true. What we don't know is if T'Les would have had the same power, had she so chosen.

It's pretty clear in Amok Time, T'Pring had two legal options - call a challenge or marry Spock. But I think the Koss situation indicates that in T'Pol's time and/or before the onset of pon farr, there were other ways to break off matches. We really don't know if gender played a part in the ability to do this, or if it was family rank or influence. We also don't know what other reasons might be available to a family that wanted to break off the match. But, it is clear that it is Koss's parents negotiating with T'Les in this matter and that the two adult children are secondary. Does anyone remember if the letter came from T'Les or Koss's family? Is that ever made clear?

[Kotik]

That's true. What we don't know is if T'Les would have had the same power, had she so chosen.

It's pretty clear in Amok Time, T'Pring had two legal options - call a challenge or marry Spock. But I think the Koss situation indicates that in T'Pol's time and/or before the onset of pon farr, there were other ways to break off matches. We really don't know if gender played a part in the ability to do this, or if it was family rank or influence. We also don't know what other reasons might be available to a family that wanted to break off the match. But, it is clear that it is Koss's parents negotiating with T'Les in this matter and that the two adult children are secondary. Does anyone remember if the letter came from T'Les or Koss's family? Is that ever made clear?

The letter came from Koss' family. It was made clear in "Breaking the Ice"

[Silverbullet]

Property. In Amok time Spock returns to Vulcan because Pon Farr is coming fast. T'pring tells him that he is a legend and she does not want to be married to a legend. She declares a death match. Chooses Kirk as her Campion. Spock apparently kills kirk and is the winner. T'Pring explains her plan and Spock admires it. He then says to Ston:

"She is yours" What Spock is doing is giving his Property "T'Pring" to Ston. If he does not then T'Pring is bound to Spock and has to marry him and satisfy his Pon Farr. Spock, as I say, gives his property to Stonn. Spock does not say to T'Pring go with Ston, be happy, live long and prosper. He gives her to Ston. She is his property to give as he has wond the death match.

apparently Spock is no longer threatened by the Pon Farr. In voyager the Pon farr of the Vulcan male was ended by the fight which Torres won. Also it seemed to be ended by the fight Spock ad Kirk had. If that is so. why not just have a non lethal fight and the Pon Farr would be ended. No need for marriage. Everyone goes home happy.

[Distracted]

But it seems to me that Vulcans arrange marriages in a culture where outside friendship is looked down upon and that the affection between spouse and family is a primary reason for the match. Even thinking as a Vulcan, I would want my child to marry someone who had the capacity to develop primary affection for them. And if my child was a homosexual, I would not want to see them bound to a person for whom they could never fully develop affection for. I can believe, however, that there's enough diversity of opinion among Vulcans that not everyone would feel this way.

I'm sure there would be some variance, but (and this may sound strange coming from someone whose collected stories have been referred to as "Loveboat in Space") I tend to lean more toward the opinion that the average Vulcan parent would consider the prospect of their offspring developing "affection" for their spouse and vice-versa to be of minimal importance when compared to attributes which might be passed on to future generations...like intelligence and lack of hereditary diseases...or even when compared to factors like mutual interests and social compatibility.

[WarpGirl]

"Love Boat In Space"??????? Tell me you're joking Dis, please... You're stories are for more rich and varied than that description. What an injustice!

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

A couple of things...

1) In Sweden pimping is and always have been illegal. Prostitution itself hasn't been, but since the late 1990s it had been illegal to buy sex, but not selling it. Very weird law, that.

2) Temple prostitution has been going on here on Earth in historical times. See: Sacred prostitution.

3) Both the Vulcan male and female have little say in who they marry, as Dis pointed out. Their parents on the other hand have. At least a female can call a kal-if-fee, but what does an unhappy male do?

[WarpGirl]

Thank you KTR are women so weak and vaunerable that in order to defend them men have to risk dying of something they neither choose to go through, or can control? I find it insulting to both sexes.

[honeybee]

Warpgirl, you may advocate violence and believe women (or people for that matter) should be compelled to defend themselves by violence and if they fail - that sex be coerced from them. I, and I believe that most of us, believe that a person's physical weakness/lack of fighting skills or even lack of desire to do violence/see violence done to another person should not be a deciding factor in whether the law forces them into marriage/sex.

While it is true that some women might be able to fight a man in a challenge, why should she have to? Shouldn't she have another option? Violence/threat of violence=coercion.

It certainly appears that Vulcan women, like their human counterparts, are on average smaller and weigh less than Vulcan men. This would put them, in most situations, at a physical disadvantage. But that's irrelevant. I'm pretty sure T'Pol could have killed Koss in a fight, given her combat skills. I seriously doubt she wanted to kill anyone, given her experience in The Seventh. Why force her into that? Why should her only legal choices be violence or forced marriage?

For the record, I think its equally immoral for a society to place a man in a position to have to coerce anyone into sex or die trying. I can certainly imagine a Vulcan feeling very ashamed/horrified at putting a female in that position. In a broader sense, it seems that Spock had no interest in T'Pring beyond being compelled to satisfy his own pon farr - she (and a very clever Dr. McCoy) found an out that made everyone happy/content. It seems to me that an easier/better option would have been logical.

Since whether women enter pon farr naturally is a subject of debate, I don't know if a male could call a challenge or if it would happen. Or if there is or was some other out for a male. It seems like there should be, just as there should be for women.

Oh, and for the record, the inability or desire not to commit an act of violence or fight to the death does not make any person weak. In fact, I believe the desire not to take a life, even if that person is a threat to you, shows strength of character.