"Divergent Paths" Discussion

[Rigil Kent]

PS I thought I was the only SW's fan on the planet who thought ROTS was not all it was cracked up to be. My fellow KOTORians would disagree with both of us.

The prequel trilogy looked very pretty and there were certainly some "OMFG!" moments in them (Suitless!Vader marching onto the Jedi Temple with the 501st was soooooooo cool), but compared to the perfection that was The Greatest Movie Of All Time (aka "The Empire Strikes Back"), they were flaccid, empty, and utterly pointless.

Plus, they had Jar Jar in them and for that, I will never forgive Lucas. Never.

[WarpGirl]

Hey that's my dog you're talking about! To tell the truth I'm disillusioned with all of the movies now. I'm strictly ancient Jedi/Sith/Republic now. I'm just over it. I think there was just way too many problems over the last decade, that soured me on everything.

Back OT... Can't wait for more.

[WarpGirl]

Sorry for the double... OH WOW! Good golly miss Molly, holy cow!!!!!!!!! That rocked my world. When T'Pol said her name was "T'Pol Tucker" it really felt like she meant it, it wasn't a cover anymore, it was her identity. Was that intentional? Or is my overactive, romantic imagination playing tricks on me? I know you made it clear she thinks of Trip as her mate, but that line seemed to indicate she wants it to be perminent, even if he freaks.

Orians! OK How and why Orians? And that is the absolute best way I have ever seen them used. Somehow my first thought was Rommies though? Maybe I just have Rommies on the brain...

[Rigil Kent]

I know you made it clear she thinks of Trip as her mate, but that line seemed to indicate she wants it to be perminent, even if he freaks.

I would have thought that her thinking of him as her mate was permanent enough. For the most part, I adhere to the "Vulcans are biologically inclined toward monogamy" concept, so her thinking of him as her mate is actually more permanent than a human marriage. It was not my intention to do anything whacky with the name - she just used the same one that she gave Undil way back when.

Plus? I have absolutely no idea what her clan name would be since they've never released it (canonically or simply officially.) that I'm aware of.

[WarpGirl]

I agree that Vulcans are biologically inclined to monogomy... But what I meant was I got the feeling that she was accepting the situation as perminent for her regardless of how Trip reacts. She views herself as his mate period. Since she did the exact opposite in the series I liked this. Maybe I was wrong, but it was a good feeling.

[Transwarp]

I have absolutely no idea what her clan name would be since they've never released it (canonically or simply officially.) that I'm aware of.

They have not. When I need T'Pol's clan name, I shamelessly steal... uh, I mean borrow it from black'nblue's 'Road Less Traveled' series. I really like his depiction of Vulcan society.

[pdsldl]

Did I miss something? I would think if T'Pol realizes they are bonded and stranded away from any known civilization then it is permanent because there is no one that could undo the bond, if in reality that is even possible. As to Trip accepting it or not it's appears to be a done deal what choice does he have and besides he obviously has feelings for her so I'd think after he got over the shock he'd be more than reconciled with the idea.

[Rigil Kent]

Truthfully, she isn't 100% positive about the Bond since it's (as far as she's aware) based on myth. I'll be going into it in more detail, but she's quite afraid that this is just a side effect of the meld. At the moment, she's drugged up so you're just seeing her inner thoughts without the benefit of any suppression techniques.

I shamelessly steal... uh, I mean borrow it from black'nblue's 'Road Less Traveled' series.

No, I've never done that before. *whistles nonchalantly at the crappy night vision he nicked*

Of course, I've also seriously considered borrowing this wicked cool idea I saw in an ENT rebot fic by Taralon (The Open Door, pretty TnT friendly, but he hasn't updated in like forever) where he hypothesized:

Vulcan's were insanely adapted, specialized omnivores. They were built from the inside out as impulse hunters, it was all about the burst of speed after a long wait, not a drawn out chase. Their muscle tissue was highly skewed towards what humans classified as 'fast twitch', and there was the fact that they had a smaller portion of muscle tissue 'at rest' during a contraction.

It gave them great burst strength, tailored to the impulsive aggression they displayed during the wars in their past; violent, brutal, but without prolonged battles.

That, to me, totally explains the occasional "super strength" Vulcans possess without turning them into Kal-El's distant cousins. Really strong for very short periods of time.

Also? He has this wicked neat idea about humanity's major advantage in the Trek verse being their insane endurance which actually has precedence in Real Life that I've considered borrowing. My favorite remark in that TV Tropes thing is this funny little exchange in there:

Gazelle 1: Oh man, I've been running for a whole five minutes and that human's still chasing me!
Gazelle 2: It gets worse. The wolves have started teaming up with them.
Gazelle 1: Oh God...

[hth2k]

Ok, read the most recent edition. Not what I expected.

Strikes me las more of a "A Team" meets "The Cisco Kid" or "Roy Rogers" . Lots of action, noise and explosions, and no one ever gets hit. Ok the two grunts got wacked good with a stick, but they have no idea of why. Noone has any motivation not to want to persue them further. So the old guy lives and calls his superiors and alerts them to a high value target. Fenner wants them even more now. Five days on the way and this is the best plan he comes up with? Has he thought at all of the long term implications and effects of his actions? Obviously not. Just gotta get T'Pol, NOW! Superficially interesting but laargely unsatisfying. But that is just me as I'm not Vulcanized, just an old school savage.

Not real sure if I like this approach, but that matters not at all. It's your story.

Remember "Saving Private Ryan" and what was the result of the "good deed" of releasing the German soldier? Obviously you and I have different opinions of what is required for survival and what can come back and bite you hard.

Anyway, T'Pol is back and they are on the road again. (Cue Willy Nelson song.)

Enthusiasm dampened, but still reading as new chapters come.


HtH

A Team, thousands of rounds expended and no one ever gets hit.

Roy Rogers and Cisco Kid, '50's TV cowboys, lots of action and gunfire rarely anyone suffers more than a hit in an arm or hand. Yeah, I liked both shows as a kid.

[Rigil Kent]

More like a "A Team" meets "The Cisco Kid" or "Roy ROgers" . Lots of noise and explosions, and no one ever gets hit. Ok the two grunts got wacked good with a stick but they have no idea of why. Noone has any motivation not to want to persue them further. So the old guy lives and has his superiors send out reenforcements and alerts them to a high value target. Fenner wants them even more as well. Five days on the way and this is the best plan he comes up with? Has he thought at all of the long term implications and effects of his actions> Obviously not. Just gotta get T'Pol, NOW! Superficially interesting but laargely unsatisfying in the long run. But that is just me and I'm not Vulcanized, just an old school savage.

So what is your suggestion about how he should have acted? That he goes around murdering people just to cover his tracks? I'm sorry, but that sure as hell wouldn't discourage them from following him either and, if anything, would only fire them up and make them want revenge against the murderous aliens who killed their buddies. If Trip had been trained as a pure soldier (a MACO, or a security officer), then yeah, I could see him going all commando-like and killing anything that gets in his way, but even with T'Pol's super training, doing something like that doesn't remotely track with his character IMO. He isn't a killer. Do you not recall much earlier in the story when he accidentally killed some people and how he didn't exactly just shrug it off? Take it from someone who has killed in combat - it isn't something you just shrug and get over (unless you're wired differently than most human beings.) They aren't just blips on a screen, but living, breathing people. Talking about killing someone is easy - actually doing it? Not so much.

Would I have done things differently if I were in his position? Probably, but I was trained as an infantryman and they established pretty early on that Trip has had a comparatively sheltered career in Starfleet so, IMNSHO, it would have been wildly out-of-character for Tucker to start killing people just because they happened to be in his way. Not to mention, he technically shouldn't even be able to walk right now and is only functioning at perhaps 20% capacity (thanks to exhaustion, pain, and injuries not yet healed.) I thought that was clear as well, but apparently not. Yeah, he's had five days, but it's five days of nonstop pain, confusion, and something going on with his head that he doesn't begin to understand. He can barely think straight as indicated by his decision to undertake a very stupid rescue mission, but he's being driven by the primal emotions at the heart of the Bond. Without it, he'd be passed out somewhere as his body tried to recover from the still recent bear attack.

Remember "Saving Private Ryan" and what qas the result of the "good deed" of releasing the German soldier? Obviously you and I have different opinions of what is required for survival and what can come back and bite you hard.

And why in the world would you presume that I share Trip's opinion here? When I'm writing something, I generally try to suspend my own personal beliefs and stay in the POV character's head unless its appropriate for the character's thoughts to mirror mine. Like I said, I was trained differently and yeah, I probably would have killed those two sentries that he just knocked out but that's how I was taught. Trip is an engineer who has been taught how to fight by a Vulcan ... and one of their primary tenets is to not kill whenever possible. Do you think T'Pol wouldn't teach him that as well?

Enthusiasm dampened

Right back atcha. You're the second person (both men, I notice) who have commented on Trip not murdering a person being the wrong decision and for the life of me, I cannot comprehend why either of you would think that the pre-Xindi Trip was even capable of something like that.

So yeah. I'm a little confused at this reaction, a little frustrated, and a bit defensive. Apparently, your view of the character could not possibly be more different than what I saw on the show.

[hth2k]

So what is your suggestion about how he should have acted? That he goes around murdering people just to cover his tracks? I'm sorry, but that sure as hell wouldn't discourage them from following him either and, if anything, would only fire them up and make them want revenge against the murderous aliens who killed their buddies. If Trip had been trained as a pure soldier (a MACO, or a security officer), then yeah, I could see him going all commando-like and killing anything that gets in his way, but even with T'Pol's super training, doing something like that doesn't remotely track with his character IMO. He isn't a killer. Do you not recall much earlier in the story when he accidentally killed some people and how he didn't exactly just shrug it off? Take it from someone who has killed in combat - it isn't something you just shrug and get over (unless you're wired differently than most human beings.) They aren't just blips on a screen, but living, breathing people. Talking about killing someone is easy - actually doing it? Not so much.

I don't see this as equivalent to murder. The setting is war and survival in that setting. How does leaving a bunch of witnesses that can describe who, what, where, when, and how improve their survival potential? Is the Staff-adjutant a greater threat alive or dead? Most of the grunts likely don't matter in the long run unless they can relate him to some specific thing. The guys at the urinal likely wouldn't tus are little threat. The old man and woman in he observation room are threats. If staff does not know what happened then the threat is less. You are absolutely correct in stating that he is not a soldier. He is an intellectual with some incomplete Vulcan training along with whatever he may remember from his Starfleet training. I think he may tend to go McGyver rather than Sgt. Rock or Rambo. Many have seen T'Pol and most have little idea of she is real or what. Perhaps a mythical creature that may be either boon or threat. Should she disappear without living witnesses what would those left assume? Don't go neat one of those damn things if you ever encounter one.

Would I have done things differently if I were in his position? Probably, but I was trained as an infantryman and they established pretty early on that Trip has had a comparatively sheltered career in Starfleet so, IMNSHO, it would have been wildly out-of-character for Tucker to start killing people just because they happened to be in his way. Not to mention, he technically shouldn't even be able to walk right now and is only functioning at perhaps 20% capacity (thanks to exhaustion, pain, and injuries not yet healed.) I thought that was clear as well, but apparently not. Yeah, he's had five days, but it's five days of nonstop pain, confusion, and something going on with his head that he doesn't begin to understand. He can barely think straight as indicated by his decision to undertake a very stupid rescue mission, but he's being driven by the primal emotions at the heart of the Bond. Without it, he'd be passed out somewhere as his body tried to recover from the still recent bear attack.

Yes, you made all that abundantly clear. Perhaps I was personalizing a bit. I often think while driving or in the evenings before going to sleep and thought he may as well. My comment was not intended to get you p.O'd. See above, he is an engineer, an intellectual. He knows he is going to an airfield. n enemy airfield held by a large number of military types. Would he visualize and start making plans and variations for what he may encounter along the way? Would he have several options available by the time he got there? Apparently you see him as significantly ore impaired mentally than I perceived. So'kay, it is your story. I'm just a reader. One amongst many. If you read the feedback here and at ff.net, one of a very small minority that was not completely enthused. Sorry.

And why in the world would you presume that I share Trip's opinion here? When I'm writing something, I generally try to suspend my own personal beliefs and stay in the POV character's head unless its appropriate for the character's thoughts to mirror mine. Like I said, I was trained differently and yeah, I probably would have killed those two sentries that he just knocked out but that's how I was taught. Trip is an engineer who has been taught how to fight by a Vulcan ... and one of their primary tenets is to not kill whenever possible. Do you think T'Pol wouldn't teach him that as well?

Probably should said trip there and not made it personal. Then again we can not assume he would have ever heard of the film or book. I would say you do that very well.

Right back atcha. You're the second person (both men, I notice) who have commented on Trip not murdering a person being the wrong decision and for the life of me, I cannot comprehend why either of you would think that the pre-Xindi Trip was even capable of something like that.

Don't be bummed. I thought the point of feedback was to convey what we the audience experienced. I read the chapter twice and noted the impression i had. Not saying it was bad, wrong, or anything other than not what I was expecting. I said dampened, not gone. Don't be so danged sensitive. Maybe that is one of the things that make you such a damn good writer.

So yeah. I'm a little confused at this reaction, a little frustrated, and a bit defensive. Apparently, your view of the character could not possibly be more different than what I saw on the show.

What would you prefer? Honest direct impressions and discussion or obsequious flattery? Sorry, but I am not equipped for the latter. I only see this Trip and T'Pol as vaguely resembling either as written by TPTB or should it be TPTW.

Maybe because we are different and have different experiences that lead to differing conclusions and impressions.


So, you are batting .998 with a base hit and a stand up double. What is bad about that?

HtH

No these really are McGoo's glasses, I just borowed them.

[Rigil Kent]

I don't see this as equivalent to murder.

In every instance, the threats were neutralized. They were either unconscious or, in one instance, simply incapable of reacting. That means they were helpless. How is that not murder, war setting or not? Executing helpless prisoners is considered a war crime. Sorry, but I just can't see Trip - even season 3 Trip - capable of this.

How does leaving a bunch of witnesses that can describe who, what, where, when, and how improve their survival potential?

Multiple people have seen T'Pol beyond these people from the previous camp, so its already impossible for him to contain that problem. How many can accurately describe what Trip looks like? None. The two guards he jumped next to the rail line didn't have enough time to get a good description of him - they'd probably say he "was big and fast. And I think there were two of them." just to save face. The guy in the motor pool from earlier he jumped from behind at night. The two Trip punked outside this place were fighting a form in the dark (who could see while they couldn't.) The woman barely had time to look at Trip before she went for the alarm and he knocked her out. The old man was suffering from a massive heart attack (and very likely did not survive this chapter based on the tech level.) Ferran opened the door to get a rifle butt to the face. So none of them know what Trip looks like. The only one truly capable of doing that is Pater Undil and even then, his description would likely match hundreds of thousands of people: "this high, with a beard, and blue eyes. I think."

Is the Staff-adjutant a greater threat alive or dead?

Again, you're presuming that Trip is capable of cold-blooded murder which I categorically disagree with. The man was neutralized, unconscious and bleeding on the floor. Yes, he's probably still a threat, but that still doesn't mean Trip would execute him which is what it would boil down to.

The old man and woman in he observation room are threats.

Well, he probably isn't. Massive heart attack, 1920s-1930s tech level. The woman? Not sure, but given how weird their position is in this society it's possible no one would listen to her anyway.

I think he may tend to go McGyver rather than Sgt. Rock or Rambo.

And good old Angus MacGyver never killed anyone during the course of his show.

Apparently you see him as significantly ore impaired mentally than I perceived.

Well, five days, no real sleep, running on fear and adrenaline, plus some weird psychic thing going on and pain ... yeah ... I guess I could have conveyed his mental state a little better.

Don't be bummed. I thought the point of feedback was to convey what we the audience experienced. I read the chapter twice and noted the impression i had. Not saying it was bad, wrong, or anything other than not what I was expecting. I said dampened, not gone. Don't be so danged sensitive.

No, sorry. I overreacted. Craptastic day and this just came at a weird moment. Mea culpa.

What would you prefer? Honest direct impressions and discussion or obsequious flattery?

Can I have both? No, seriously, I prefer the former. Like I said, I overreacted due to various issues. My bad.

[Transwarp]

I read the chapter where Trip rescues T'Pol, and I did not find it even remotely similar to the A-Team or Roy Rogers. I found it completely plausible. Trip didn't just go barging in with guns blazing, he actually formulated a pretty decent plan, given his mental and physical state: Blow the generators, slip in under cover of darkness, and effect a rescue.

I found it completely in-character that he DIDN'T kill anyone after he had taken them out. I would have reacted negatively if he HAD.

My only niggle with this chapter (and it's a small one) was the way the bond seemed to be influencing him. As if it were a living thing, forcing him to come to the aide of his mate; a reckless influence that he had to fight against to keep from charging forward in a blind, Vulcan rage. I have never gone for depictions of bonds in fan fiction that seem to transplant Vulcan biological imperatives onto humans, that seem to create irresistible urges within the human partner that are contrary to human nature. (My own version of the bond may be quite powerful--the full-featured 'telepathic telephone' that you've stated you wish to avoid--but it doesn't replace Trip's human nature with a Vulcan one.)

Then again, it's possible the bond's affects were magnified by his weakened physical condition and mental exhaustion. I am certainly looking forward to see how the two handle this new feature of their relationship.

[hth2k]

Methinks perhaps I mislead my expectations previously and someone chose not to disabuse me of my error.
No biggie.

No I would not argue with the situations as you present them here. Thogh I would not be shocked if the old man faked the heart attack. (Being an old man myself.) "Old age and treachery beats youth and enthusiasm every time" as they say. He has to have some value, else why is he sitting in on the interrigation? Kill him, again a thorny issue.

Ask a soldier that has done house to house in Iraq about making assumptions about who is and is not a threat. Grebades in baby beds, Wounded down non-uniformed men rolling grenades or pulling hidden pistols or rifles. Kids walking up with grenades or explosives strapped to them. It is hard and getting harder in the real world. Heard on the radio this afternoon the Taliban publicly hung a 7 year old boy as a spy. Makes you want to cry or just kill them all.

As for the Goering emulator, if the rifle but happened to be tilted to drive the nise up into the brain during the butt stroke...during the rescue, is that murder? Kill him after he is down, different issue entirely.

If the womans neck breaks as she strikes the wall, is that murder? If you go back later and put a bullet into the back of her head, yeah, that is undefensible, immoral, and sometimes the right thing to do if your goal is survival. Can't say I could do it.

Before anyone goes into a situation that will require violence, one must be clear on what they are willing and able to do. Most still don't really know until the time comes. If they hesitate and think about it when the time comes, most likely they will not have another chance to reconsider as they will likely be dead. That is why the military trains people to react and do what they have been trained to do.

I do think even in his addled state and more likely well before now, he has figured out what he is willing to do if his or her life is at risk. I don't think the answer is the same for him as her.

I think the questions you pose are valid. Maybe those things are part of the" thousand yard stare" men who survive combat decolop.

Like I said previously, I agree there was/is no need to kill off most of the grunts. The way you paint it there was little risk.

Does not matter really. Likely the interrogation was recorded in some form. (Wire recorders have been around since the 1840s.)

Yeah, no offence intended. Does the email thingy work?
If this develops like some discussions I recall from long ago the forum probably isn't a good place. My old one
still works.


Obviously I'm in the minority. Those with differing views will surely chime in.
Later,

HtH

POLITICAL COMMENT DELETED BY ADMINISTRATOR jT

[Alelou]

What happens when a socialist runs out of other poeples money? He borrows more. When that runs out?
Dunno yet, but I'm afraid we'll soon find out.

Could you please leave the politics for another forum?