Status and Support

[honeybee]

I remember being afraid at first to write smut - then, once I started, I can't seem to stop.

But you make a good point, Aquarius, taking risks is important to grow as a writer. I think that dovetails nicely into the recent conversations about labeling fics and respecting authors' desires to write experimental or interesting stories. (Archer's unrequited love for T'Pol in B+K, check) (Vulcan plural marriage in The Understanding, check) (Trip having great sex with Princess Popsicle in the Missing Scenes, check)

I challenged myself to write a story in every timeline on the show, but I was afraid of the MU. Didn't think I could realistically do a TnT story from the episode - but I found a way and am having a great time with it.

[Aquarius]

Comedy is the one thing I wouldn't ever recommend a writer try to force. I think you either have it in you or you don't. If it's there, you can hone it, but if it isn't there, it just isn't there.

Of course, if you really enjoy laughing at comedies by other people, then there's probably something there. If you generally feel you just don't get it when other people are howling with laughter, though, what's the point? It would be like a blind person trying to paint watercolors.

That's very astute. There's a difference between trying something to see if you can do it and apply what you've learned to storytelling in general, vs. forcing yourself to be something you're not. If you're tone-deaf, it's unlikely you'll ever become a great singer. Humor and comedy writing are much like that. If you hate sitcoms, often miss it when other people make jokes, or if others often miss it when you've thought you said something funny, chances are comedy writing isn't for you. The smut example is another good one--if you have a lot of sexual hang-ups and blush at anything more intimate than handholding, chances are being a romance writer isn't in the cards for you.

A willingness to try new things and be open to new ideas is critical for any artist, but one also needs to filter that through one's interests, aptitudes, and limitations.

[pdsldl]

Forcing humor doesn't work and I think the best humor comes naturally from the absurdity or whatever from a given situation not from some predetermined or contrived set of circumstances or words that are supposed to make people laugh. Things like 8 hotdogs in a package but 10 buns. Who was the braintrust that thought was a good idea. Not the funniest but you get the idea.

[Aquarius]

^ Absolutely. Funnymen like Jerry Seinfeld have built entire careers out of that kind of observational humor. Ellen Degeneress and the late Mitch Hedberg also used a lot of material pertaining to those situations in which we all feel awkward, but can't avoid--ie, thinking of a witty rejoinder ten minutes too late or being the only person in a room who actually answered a rhetorical question. Bill Cosby's humor comes from pages out of his everyday life experiences. Arguably, the most gifted comedic minds tap into experiences most people share. If you don't know how most people think, you're going to have a real hard time.

There is niche comedy, but that's so limiting, and often "regular" people lose patience with it quickly or feel alienated.

[Silverbullet]

Comedy, I can understand much of it but doubt if I could write it. Smut, same thing. But I would some day like to try both just to see what I can come up with.

Once, in the Air foce stationed in the Artic, saw a man doing somethhng he believed was funny. An airman commented "thats not funny." Another airman said "He thinks it is. Probably got it from hs dad." I had to agree with the second Ariman. Humor often is what one thnks it is. I kow I picked up things from my Dad that I belived were funny but others probably would not. Hell, he was my DAd so that was all i needed to know. today I still use some of his mannerism and mots. This despite the fact that we hated one another.

SB

[honeybee]

Bill Cosby always said that he never thought he was funny but people would laugh when he told stories - from there he started studying the great comics who were more storytellers - and his act evolved from there - but the humor was endemic to his personality.

Also, I think it depends on the person involved.

I teach David Sedaris in my class, and I am always amazed at how many straight, white frat boys want to be "just like" the gay, gay, gay Mr. Sedaris. I try and explain that much of Sedaris's humor, which has a very strong melancholy streak, comes from being an outsider looking in on society. In Santaland Diaries, he's making fun of people - but he's a 32-year-old gay man in an Elf costume. As he puts it "It doesn't get any lower than this" - and so he's looking up at the people he's ridiculing - like a court jester. When an alpha male type tries to make fun of people - it comes off as mean.

The point is - who you are and where you are on the social ladder actually goes a long way in the kind of humor you can get away with.

[Aquarius]

Bill Cosby always said that he never thought he was funny but people would laugh when he told stories - from there he started studying the great comics who were more storytellers - and his act evolved from there - but the humor was endemic to his personality.

Also, I think it depends on the person involved.

I teach David Sedaris in my class, and I am always amazed at how many straight, white frat boys what to be "just like" the gay, gay, gay Mr. Sedaris. I try and explain that much of Sedaris's humor, which has a very strong melancholy streak, comes from being an outsider looking in on society. In Santaland Diaries, he's making fun of people - but he's a 32-year-old gay man in an Elf costume. As he puts it "It doesn't get any lower than this" - and so he's looking up at the people he's ridiculing - like a court jester. When a alpha male type tries to make fun of people - it comes off as mean.

The point is - who you are and where you are on the social ladder actually goes a long way in the kind of humor you can get away with.

Good point. This is why Carlos Mencia can get away with being an "equal-opportunity offender" and I can't, despite the fact I share many of his philosophies on equality, racism, and prejudice. As a suburban white girl, no one wants to hear it from me.

[pdsldl]

Bill Cosby always said that he never thought he was funny but people would laugh when he told stories - from there he started studying the great comics who were more storytellers - and his act evolved from there - but the humor was endemic to his personality.

Also, I think it depends on the person involved.

I teach David Sedaris in my class, and I am always amazed at how many straight, white frat boys what to be "just like" the gay, gay, gay Mr. Sedaris. I try and explain that much of Sedaris's humor, which has a very strong melancholy streak, comes from being an outsider looking in on society. In Santaland Diaries, he's making fun of people - but he's a 32-year-old gay man in an Elf costume. As he puts it "It doesn't get any lower than this" - and so he's looking up at the people he's ridiculing - like a court jester. When a alpha male type tries to make fun of people - it comes off as mean.

The point is - who you are and where you are on the social ladder actually goes a long way in the kind of humor you can get away with.

You're so right. I never really looked at it that way but it's true. Would the alpha male as an outsider in certain situations work to make the humor less caustic?

[Alelou]

Humor is actually a really complicated area. I mean, it stretches from slapstick and stuff that we laugh at partly because it makes us nervous (like the horrifying pratfalls in America's Funniest Videos), to self-deprecating humor, situational humor, close observation of things in our daily lives that we don't even think about most of the time (Ellen can make a story about trying to get toilet paper off a roll in a public bathroom just hysterical), satire, parody, and wit. You can really enjoy some of it and be completely left cold by other types, depending on your own sense of humor and the kind of family you grew up in.

My husband is Hispanic and absolutely can't stand Carlos Mencia. He doesn't think he gets away with it. (Then again, Jaime tends to dislike comics he hasn't seen in anything more than commercials. He complained bitterly about Rosanne for years based solely on the commercials, and then somehow he got hooked on her show.)

Certain sitcoms leave me utterly cold, so I know there are some types of humor I just don't get -- either that, or I do get the comic point they're making and I just don't agree with it. It's like watching the other side's political humor. It's hard to enjoy, usually.

[honeybee]

You're so right. I never really looked at it that way but it's true. Would the alpha male as an outsider in certain situations work to make the humor less caustic?

Well, I've taught travel writing and noticed that often the funniest travel narratives are still written by white, straight males because in some cases, the sheer vulnerability of going somewhere like India or Africa or Japan - where you completely stand out and aren't in charge and are not the "norm" both inspires a sense of wonder and fear - and if done right (not in a let's make fun of "the natives" way, but rather a - why is everyone staring at me? way) - and that can be hilarious. Bill Bryson is a master at that.

Paul Theroux, on the other hand, gets away with being caustic because of his own self-hatred and misanthropy. (As a student of mine said, it's like reading "Travels with Dr. House.)

My husband is Hispanic and absolutely can't stand Carlos Mencia. He doesn't think he gets away with it. (Then again, Jaime tends to dislike comics he hasn't seen in anything more than commercials. He complained bitterly about Rosanne for years based solely on the commercials, and then somehow he got hooked on her show.)

I read somewhere that Carlos Mencia's dad is Caucasian - and that he changed his name to Mencia from a white-sounding name so he could "get away" with ethnic humor.

I, too, found Roseanne's humor caustic and unpleasant, but the early seasons of her show were just brilliant. Kudos to the writers who really give those characters life - very few sitcom pull off funny and serious in the way that show did. Joss Whedon's father was a producer and writing for that show was one of his first gigs, good training for the serio-comic tone that made Buffy so great. There was massive amounts of creative tension on that show as well.

[pdsldl]

I tend to not like the caustic humor out there. I hated Don Rickles because his jokes seemed to be more personal and attacking I loved Rosanne in the first few years also but hated Married with Children because it seemed more cruel and cynical about married life and children.

Strangely that's why I don't write humor because it comes off as caustic and too serious. That's just my personality coming through, I think. I can't even manage to come up with single lines of sarcasm for characters when I need to, so I really appreciate those that can write it.

[WarpGirl]

Well I fully admit I don't like sit-coms and find most comics utterly incomprehensible. Tina Fey is absolutely amazing though. However, forced oor not I feel like this is something I should try. I kind of feel like just because I don't get why people find Jerry Sienfeld funny doesn't mean that I shouldn't try. I mean even if I fail (and I expect too) what's the harm in trying. I'm not hurting anyone, and they don't have to find me funny.

[panyasan]

I laughed a lot with Jerry Seinfeld, I do like political jokes and mostly I liked when people make fun from themselves, mocked themselves and don't take themselves too seriously. It works even better when those comedians are making jokes over the top or absurd jokes. I think the best comedians are the ones that put a mirrow in front of you, that's make you laugh - but it hurts also a bit, because it's so true. Sometimes you can make a joke in a very serious situation or about a serious situation, that make you both laugh (and cry a little inside). When it comes to fan fic, I remember a Bluetiger MU funny story that I liked a lot and for me Aquarius humor is unmatched in it's funnyness (I think I just made up a new English word) and of course that very funny line in the middle of a serious tale that no one expected - love those. I think writing humor isn't my thing, but sometimes (it's rare) I write stuff and just a funny line pops up - and I am grinning behind my computer and enjoy writing.

[Lady Rainbow]

*chuckles* You know, that happens to me too. I don't really plan it, either. It just happens.

I remember one my my stories ("Reed's Raiders on ff.net) began as a serious "Hayes and Malcolm still have their rivalry but they have to work together to retake the Enterprise from Nausicaan pirates" and I was planning all this angst. Didn't happen that way. I saw a pic of Dominic Keating in a blue silk shirt somewhere and it sparked a brainwave. MALCOLM AS A PIRATE!

And it kinda snowballed from there. As in "Pirates of the Carribean" snowballed. LOL. After that, I was laughing more than I was writing it. But my point is...it just happened. Angst? What angst? (except for the last chapter).

[Silverbullet]

Humer can depend on many things. Bill Mauldin a WWII Cartoonist drew cartoons for the Dogface GI who slept in the mud and slogged through Rann and Snow. His humor was loved the those G.I.'s However, from today's standpoint they may be inccromprehensible. I have a book with all of Mauldins WWII Willie and Joe Cartoons. I till laugh at them although I have looked at the Cartoons dozens of times. Mauldin was a great Political Croonist. He won a Pulizter for his WWII cartoon and for one he drew right after Kennesdy's assistnation. NOt funny but Heart Wrenching. It showed Lincoln sitting in his Chair (in the Lincoln Memorial) holding his head in his hands nad crying.

One would not believe that War and Death could be a canvas for Humor but one would be wrong.