Weird TnT Dynamics

[Kotik]

There are still cultures in the world where family comes before self and arranged marriages are practiced. To say that it is evil isn't fair or right, right is a judgement not many people can make. It isn't the western way, no. But whose to say it is wrong.

Yes, and those very cultures *cough* Turkey *cough* still condone honor killings (Read: murder of own offspring) if the daughter doesn't comply with the arranged marriage. Do you condone that? Do you agree to kill own offspring because they refuse to put their familie's wishes before their own? Do you agree that someone has to die because he/she refuses to be enslaved by their ancestors? I'm on a rage. We had several "honor murders" in Germany in the last few years. 18 year old girls of turkish origin being slain, because they chose a german boyfriend over their turkish betrothed. Welcome to reality ma'am, that's arranged marriage for ya

[Escriba]

Well, yes, but to be fair that's actually forced arranged marriage. Modern Hindus living in the Western countries has a new arranged marriage system that is more like a "date agency" run by the mothers. Monsoon Wedding is a good movie about these arranged marriages that isn't derogatory for neither the man or the woman involved.

I'm actually surprised of how many people think that romantic love is the importan element in a marriage. It isn't. It's the fact that the bride and the groom are willing and not forced to accept the marriage. The cause of the marriage, if you fulfill all the obligations of the marriage, is unimportant. You can marry for whatever reason you want. Marriage is the only legal transaction without a cause. Yes, guys, marriage is a legal transaction, that's its definition according to Law.

I love when there's an evil one. I'm enamoured of the battle between Evil and Good. I love when the adder is borne down. Crushed. Annihilated. Spurting its blood all around. Unbinding and losing its black soul in the mud.

Aside from psychos (and these are Human depredators because they don't have empathy) most people aren't evil. Most people don't want to be evil. But the most evil deeds have been done by people that thought they were acting right. Most part of tyrants and dictators aren't men dressed in black that rub their hands together and twist their big moustaches and know they're super evil. No. Most part (if not all) of them are normal people that look everyday in the mirror and think they're nice people and they are helping others. Or they are chosen by a Deity.

I find more interesting the idea that anybody can be evil, really evil, absolutely evil and anyhow, think that you're the good guy in the story. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all.

[Transwarp]

It isn't the western way, no. But whose to say it is wrong.

I see nothing wrong with passing judgment on other cultures. If they do not like my judgment, they are at liberty to try to convince me I am wrong.

I think one of the biggest problems facing us today is that western civilization seems to be losing the will to defend itself. A culture that believes its laws, institutions and traditions are not worth defending will be subsumed by those that do. Too many people seem unwilling to defend the west against its detractors and enemies. Too many seemed ashamed of the west's accomplishments. Too many seem to think we are the problem and not the solution. Too many seem unable or unwilling to pass judgment on the relative merits of different cultures.

'Who are we to judge?' is the refrain, as if judging is somehow wrong, instead of something central to human existence. How can we survive in an implacable universe without the capacity to judge safe from dangerous? Right from wrong? Good from evil?

All cultures are not equally good at improving the human condition. I would argue that some cultures are, in fact dysfunctional--a blight on humanity. Most are somewhere in between, but will never improve, as long as people are afraid to judge...

[Escriba]

Yes, I agree with you. But the real problems come from what do you do when your judgment doesn't have any repercussion.

I mean, you live in a Western country and it's obvious that nobody of any religion can burn the face of a woman with acid for any reason, because that goes against Law. That's obvious, no problem. But what if you try to say that, you know, wearing a veil is against women? You may be right, but if an adult woman, older than 18 (or 21, depending of the country) wants to wear it what do you do? Force her not to wear it? But if you force her then you're not better than what you try to fight. And why force her and not a noon, since they're are almost the same in the Catholic way? You can only defend the one who doesn't want to wear it from any harm.

It's like imposing democracy in a country. You can't impose democracy, because then it's a tyranny. As Terry Pratchett said: "You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage."

So, yes, I agree with you (except that obviously we aren't losing our will to defend ourself, we can invade countries if we want, after all) but it's complicated. You can only lead by the example.

But on the topic again: Why Trip and T'Pol seem so incapable of talking to the other about what's really happening? Why they assume the other is going to understand when they are from different species? Why are they so stubborn? That's my biggest complain about season 4.

[Escriba]

Sorry, double post

Oh, but I'd take the opportunity to clear up that when I say you can't impose democracy, I mean a especific democratic system, not Democracy itself. Because Democracy by definition can't be imposed.

[Transwarp]

But what if you try to say that, you know, wearing a veil is against women? You may be right, but if an adult woman, older than 18 (or 21, depending of the country) wants to wear it what do you do? Force her not to wear it?

Then I let her wear a veil, if she so desires. Or a burkha, concealing her whole face. [She just has to take it off when she's getting her driver's license picture.]
I do find the custom of completely covering women to be a form of abuse, a way of dehumanizing them, and I question how many women in those countries really WANT to wear them, versus fearing the (harsh) consequences of NOT wearing them.

It's like imposing democracy in a country. You can't impose democracy, because then it's a tyranny.

True, but that doesn't mean that democracy will NEVER work in that country, or that the country's prior regime was preferable.

So, yes, I agree with you (except that obviously we aren't losing our will to defend ourself, we can invade countries if we want, after all)

I actually wasn't referring to defending ourselves in a military sense. I meant in an intellectual, philosophical sense. That is the only arena where a clash between cultures can be won, and we are unilaterally disarming ourselves.

But on the topic again: Why Trip and T'Pol seem so incapable of talking to the other about what's really happening? Why they assume the other is going to understand when they are from different species? Why are they so stubborn? That's my biggest complain about season 4.

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one! Because the show's writers were total boneheads, that's why. If they had taken one-tenth the care that the people on this web site take, the show would probably still be on the air.

[Escriba]

I agree, I agree with you completely! *high five* You've expressed what I was trying to say, and way better

But on the topic again: Why Trip and T'Pol seem so incapable of talking to the other about what's really happening? Why they assume the other is going to understand when they are from different species? Why are they so stubborn? That's my biggest complain about season 4.

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one! Because the show's writers were total boneheads, that's why. If they had taken one-tenth the care that the people on this web site take, the show would probably still be on the air.

Well, yes, but if we took Trip and T'Pol as if they are real people and not characters in a show... Wait, that sounds just crazy.

[Asso]

They exist...and in a one-hour television drama, they often come off as one-dimensional if they're presented as merely "good" or "evil" without any real motivation behind either. No one is 100% one or the other.

That's obvious. We are Humans (or Vulcans, or Andorians, or etc etc etc). We are living creatures, not angels, not demons. But Evil and Good exist, and what I meant with my sentence is that, personally, I find really intriguing the fight between them. The "rendering of accounts" has a dramatic force which works always (if it is well done), and for my personal taste it is attractive to my eyes.
About the motivations behind the bad or good behaviours, nevertheless, I want to be clear. These motivations can exist, in fact THEY EXIST, but the judgement - the final judgement - is ours, of the women and the men we are. We MUST be capable of doing the right choices, because, if we don't do this, we become automatically BAD, regardless the more or less right motivations which can inspire our behaviours.
On the other hand, I think my stories speak by themselves, my characters, I think, are not black and white. But, in any case, when we do something evil, that's evil, regardless of the reasons because of we did that. And no justification can stand.

I'm actually surprised of how many people think that romantic love is the importan element in a marriage. It isn't. It's the fact that the bride and the groom are willing and not forced to accept the marriage. The cause of the marriage, if you fulfill all the obligations of the marriage, is unimportant. You can marry for whatever reason you want. Marriage is the only legal transaction without a cause. Yes, guys, marriage is a legal transaction, that's its definition according to Law.

Escriba, that's simply terrifying. Please, do not talk this way, because, in this case, I could talk the way Doctors talk about life and death, and this would be equally terrifying. I would like to think about a world made with real feelings, and if we hide ourselves behind the rules, we fail miserably in our destiny, we give up on what we are, what we have to be.

I love when there's an evil one. I'm enamoured of the battle between Evil and Good. I love when the adder is borne down. Crushed. Annihilated. Spurting its blood all around. Unbinding and losing its black soul in the mud.

Aside from psychos (and these are Human depredators because they don't have empathy) most people aren't evil. Most people don't want to be evil. But the most evil deeds have been done by people that thought they were acting right. Most part of tyrants and dictators aren't men dressed in black that rub their hands together and twist their big moustaches and know they're super evil. No. Most part (if not all) of them are normal people that look everyday in the mirror and think they're nice people and they are helping others. Or they are chosen by a Deity.

Be careful about that. I never will fall in this trap. The fact that these people think they are acting well and the fact that they can be nice, it doesn't mean that they are not acting wickedly.

I find more interesting the idea that anybody can be evil, really evil, absolutely evil and anyhow, think that you're the good guy in the story. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all.

That is not contrasting with what I have said, but I have my doubts about that. And about the fact that The road to hell is paved with good intentions, don't forget what I tried to mean: THE FINAL JUDGEMENT IS OUR, WE ARE RESPONSIBLE OF OUR ACTIONS. And we know, believe me, what we are doing. Probably, even the psychos, somehow.

[honeybee]

Certainly, I think its safe to say that some of the most heinously evil people who ever lived thought they were acting in the greater good. Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot spring to mind. There's a great German film called "Downfall" that portrays the last days in Hitler's bunker before the end of World War II - and it shows just how disappointed in themselves some of those Nazis were and how they really believed they had failed their people. Except for Hitler, who was angry because he believed that the German people had failed him in his crusade for a 1000 years of a Third Reich. The film never sympathizes with any of them, but it does question how so many of these people, some of whom were accomplished and intelligent, could have been so utterly blind about what they were doing.

But there is also pure evil people. Serial Killers, like Jeffery Dahmer, often identify themselves as "evil" and celebrate it. But of course, Jeffery Dahmer was a rank amateur when compared to Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.

But narratively, I do love the idea that many of the great villains don't think they are the villains in the story. They think they are the heros. Even Darth Vader thinks he's bringing peace and order to the galaxy - and those rebels just want chaos.

[Escriba]

I'm actually surprised of how many people think that romantic love is the importan element in a marriage. It isn't. It's the fact that the bride and the groom are willing and not forced to accept the marriage. The cause of the marriage, if you fulfill all the obligations of the marriage, is unimportant. You can marry for whatever reason you want. Marriage is the only legal transaction without a cause. Yes, guys, marriage is a legal transaction, that's its definition according to Law.

Escriba, that's simply terrifying. Please, do not talk this way, because, in this case, I could talk the way Doctors talk about life and death, and this would be equally terrifying. I would like to think about a world made with real feelings, and if we hide ourselves behind the rules, we fail miserably in our destiny, we give up on what we are, what we have to be.

Sorry, Asso, I didn't want to offend you. But what I said its true, you can marry for whatever reason you want and marriage is a legal transaction. That people can give it other meanings, more spiritual if you want, doesn't change the fact that marriage is an institution to define and control certain social interactions. That's why some people don't want to marry, because they think it restricts their real feelings. That's it, that if you love your partner, you don't need papers to proof it. Especially when some people define "marriage" within certain limits that exclude certain people.

As shocking as it seems, you can marry for money, that doesn't make the marriage invalid or illegal-- if the other part knows about that Marriage is a partnership (that have as theoretical objetive creating a stable bond to allow procreation), but you can base that partnership in whatever you want. How many people has married for pregnancy?

I'm sorry to sound cold. What I really wanted to say is that "marriage" is just an institution, it doesn't define nor cover all Human romantic relationships. I'm sure Asso that you agree with me in this: LOVE is too big of a word for being able to define it completely.

Be careful about that. I never will fall in this trap. The fact that these people think they are acting well and the fact that they can be nice, it doesn't mean that they are not acting wickedly.

Oh, so you fall in the trap of thinking that given some circumstances you wouldn't be evil I'm more cynical and insecure about myself than that.

That is not contrasting with what I have said, but I have my doubts about that. And about the fact that The road to hell is paved with good intentions, don't forget what I tried to mean: THE FINAL JUDGEMENT IS OUR, WE ARE RESPONSIBLE OF OUR ACTIONS. And we know, believe me, what we are doing. Probably, even the psychos, somehow.

Yes. Deeds are evil. Objetively. If you kill 10 millions, that's evil. If you kill 10 millions because you are sure that's the prize you have to pay to save 100 millions, it's equally evil, but if you must... There is a line, there is always a line between something "not very good" and "pure evil", but crossing it is so easy in some cases... It's scary. I'd rather think the way I do because it allows me to critizice myself more easily. I'm not always right, if I'm not always right and I have the same chances as everybody else to do wrong, then I will consider what I do more carefully.

But I think that in the deepest we are trying to say the same thing. It's just that we use different words

[Aikiweezie]

I think I'm jumping into this conversation way late to make any useful comments or say anything that has not been said.

HD Net started the series over two weeks ago and so I am yet again watching it from the beginning. I do think that there was a plan for Trip and T'Pol to end up together in some way from the very beginning. I am noticing a lot of subtleties pointing in that direction even in Season 1. Besides the passionate disagreements from the very start they seem to be seeking each other out a lot, standing together, working together, etc. They are drawn to one another from the start, IMHO.

[honeybee]

Okay - now its sometimes hard to get the truth - but as near as I can see, here's the story on the "plan" for romance on the show. Anyone can correct me if they've heard different.

When the pilot was written, the idea was that TnT would provide the opposites attract/ interspecies romance and Archer would be free to romance the alien babe-of-the-week. Think how Riker/Troi were set up as a romance in the pilot of TNG - while Picard was free and only later did they explore the P/C thing. B&B softened that stance when the pilot was being shot - leaving things open but you still have remnants of the original plan in the famous decon scene, in Strange New World and other early episodes. But they also tested T'Pol with Malcolm (Shuttlepod One) and Archer (The Andorian Incident/Shadows of P'Jem). They then decided to play with a TnT friendship in Breaking the Ice.

Apparently, however, as the ratings dropped in the second season and Archer wasn't testing as well as they wanted, they decided to try and go for A/T and have Trip be the one romancing the alien babes of the week. You see that all over the second season. Eye bleach, I know, but that's what they decided. Then, they recognized that A/T had no chemistry and that it would be very difficult to write any Archer romance into the planned Xindi Arc so they went back to the original plan and decided to have TnT fall in love. I'm afraid I don't know much about why Manny Coto decided to go the artificial separation route in Season 4, as he was a big believer in that relationship.

On top of that, certain writers, like Mike Sussman always continued to prefer A/T - and so when he writes episodes that tends to bubble up.

But this indecisiveness sure explains some of the weird TnT dynamics over the course of the series.

[Escriba]

Oh, great analysis, honeybee So thoughtful, as always.

I'm afraid I don't know much about why Manny Coto decided to go the artificial separation route in Season 4, as he was a big believer in that relationship.

Maybe because it's easier to write? For dramatic purposes. Perhaps it was his way to make Trip and T'Pol deal with the change in Vulcan's philosophy (Trip accepting the idea of self-sacrifice in the most painful way and T'Pol dealing with the change)

[WarpGirl]

I only have one more thing to say about the whole arranged marrige thing. Guess what not only "middle eastern" muslims do them in our days. As Escriba said, in India it is still practiced without shame and is generally not regarded is inhumane. But even in the united states there are communities where it is still practiced and vauled. For example some Jewish communities have matchmakers and families use them with very happy and good results. Everything Escriba said was true. Marriage IS a legal transaction, and you don't have to marry for Romantic love. Guess what some people don't and they end up falling in love later, or still have a good life. The "good" or "evil" that comes from an arranged marriage is based on two things. 1. The reason why the marriage is being arranged. 2. If the people arranging the marriage have the couple's best interests at heart.

In T'Pol's case I am pretty certain that her family had good motives when they betrothed her to Koss as a child. There wasn't any cruelty involved. And from T'Les' point of view nothing had changed. She was wrong, she realized it, and tried to fix it. But it was T'Pol's choice to go through with it. She defied her people before, she CHOSE not too this time.

As for TnT not behaving like two rational adults... In general the writing on ENT was horrible.

[Asso]

I don't think I will ever be able to explain EXACTLY my thought, and, even less, what I feel.
Please, listen to me: I know that marriage is a legal transition. Men had to institute laws in order to have rules, otherwise we would be condemned to death and to dangerous anarchy.
But marriage wasn't born as a legal institution, I think. It was (and is), I hope, an act of love. Or, better, that is what it should be when people begin to understand that there's something else beyond flesh and interest, or, at least, that is what I believe.
Don't take away from me this illusion.
Anyway, about Evil and Good... Well, I didn't believe I might start this discussion. You have to imagine that I merely wanted to display my personal love for dramatic scenes. Well! You know how I'm made.