Weird TnT Dynamics

[WarpGirl]

But we do that all the time. You have said things I "could be" and you don't even know me. And yes we make these judgements based on our cultures, individual experiences and knowledge of the other person's culture. So it's perfectly normal to say the because T'Pol is Vulcan she would follow Vulcan logic.

[honeybee]

Or, it would be a natural thing for her to tell herself that whatever she had decided to do was the logical choice.

[WarpGirl]

That too.

[Asso]

But we do that all the time. You have said things I "could be" and you don't even know me. And yes we make these judgements based on our cultures, individual experiences and knowledge of the other person's culture. So it's perfectly normal to say the because T'Pol is Vulcan she would follow Vulcan logic.

Maybe you should say "logical" instead than "normal".
What I wanted to mean is that what we think to read in another person, it is often - very often - what we think this person could be. But - often, very often - that person is not like we think. And we attribute to other people, reasons for their thoughts and actions which we - pay attention, please - we WOULD WANT to be the true reasons.
We have to be careful, and even more with regard to the personages we care of, Trip and T'Pol, essentially.
Yes, because they are a figment of the fantasy and, consequently, they can be whatever way you , or I, or whichever wants they have to be.
And, fully honestly, I feel a little futile that we debate about what is hidden behind their actions. I mean... that we debate seriously about that. Because for each of us they will be different: they will be like each of us wants and desires they have to be.

[WarpGirl]

I understand that but in addition to what "we want them to be" there is what they actually ARE. What we seen on TV. That can't be wiped away or forgotten.

[Asso]

You know I don't care less of that.
I saw them on the show, and what you perceived as their real being is often false for me.
I know I'm in the minority, but my opinions, too, are strong. "Out" of character, "in" character...
But which character? The one you perceive? Or the character I perceive?

[WarpGirl]

Asso, in character is what is directly stated by or about T'Pol on the TV show. And on the TV show aside from the choice to inject Trellium, she had a "logical" reason for everything. If you don't agree that's fine. You can disagree.

[Silverbullet]

Problem with T-Pol thinking she was responsible because of what happened at the monestry was wrong. She was Ordered by Archer to hand over the PADD. It is Archer who is to blame, not T-Pol. If the writers had been on the ball they would have had T-Pol wipe the Padd before handing it over or smashing it on the gorund. but since she was Ordered she followed those orders. It is the commander who ultimately has the esponsibility and Archer gave a command which was obeyed. TheVulcan Military would have understood that and could have easily exonerated T-Pol from any blame. T-Pol herself shold have used her logic to arrive at that. She may have felt sorry for her Mother because the Monestray thing was to balme for losing her job but T-POl did not have responsibility for it. She was just a subordinate obeying an Order. Archer should have made that clear after the Monestry fiasco. So it is Archer who is to blame for mamas prolem.

[WarpGirl]

Maybe you're right but in the end it doesn't matter. That is the reason the VHC gave. And a good daughter doesn't let her mother be tried and possibly executed if there is a chance she's innocent. With the information T'Pol had true or not she had to make the decision she made. I say this as a daughter.

[Asso]

Asso, in character is what is directly stated by or about T'Pol on the TV show. And on the TV show aside from the choice to inject Trellium, she had a "logical" reason for everything. If you don't agree that's fine. You can disagree.

I can disagree? Oh sure. After all, that's logical, isn't it?

[Kotik]

The whole Vulcan plot in "Home" lacked one thing - logic.

a) How did Koss or even T'Les know that T'Pol was coming home? One can guess that T'Pol told her mother by subspace transmission, but Koss could only know from T'Les. Her mother obviously was conspiring with Koss.

b) T'Pol had made it clear that she did not want to marry Koss. It may be tradition to do arranged marriages, but traditions are not LAW. So enforcing tradition against another beings will by threatening is blackmail. T'Les' logic should have told her that. Since I have been exposed to violence and blackmail by my own mother I react very badly to that.

c) Koss did gain nothing by that marriage. He had the ceremony and T'Pol left a contrail right afterwards. The whole marriage had illogic written all over it. They enforce the tradition of the arranged marriage, but foreswear the tradition of living a year together? Logic my ass.

These reasons in specific led me to the conclusion that the only reason for the whole plot line was to separate TnT to generate angst, it had no real value to further ENT's overall story.

[Escriba]

Logic is simply a system of reasoning. Logic examines general forms which arguments may take, which forms are valid, and which are fallacies. Emotions tend to dissapear from Vulcan reasoning processes because there is no way to know if they are true. That's the only thing that logic means, as we see it in Star Trek, IMO.

People here knows that I use Japanese culture and Ancient Rome culture to explain Vulcans. And following that example I reached the conclusion that Vulcans don't take many personal decisions. Vulcans are very clan or family based. Your choices affect your family. I know that for us, for the Western world, this is very weird, and even wrong, but it's perfectly possible for other cultures. Panyasan could confirm or deny what I'm going to say, but if I'm not wrong there is still in Japan the belief that the sins of your parents are your sins. If your father was a criminal, obviously you have many chances to be one (more if we take into consideration that everybody expects it.) Something similar happened in Ancient Rome, if one of your family members was declared a traitor, the entire family will suffer it. The. Entire. Family.

For some unkown reasons, maybe her own naïveté, T'Pol thought that her decisions would only affect her. But that obviously didn't happen. And when she found out that her actions affected her family, then she didn't have any other choice.

This is T'Pol. The one who was willing to sacrifice herself for the mind melders in Stigma. The one who sacrificed her career to help Humans in the Xindi mission. T'Pol always sacrifice herself for others. Never for her own happiness, as it seems.

Could she choose not to sacrifice and stay with Trip? Yes. But Trip wasn't her family and she wasn't sure about his intentions. Would their relationships last? Were they in a relationship at all? Or more precisely, was it considered a relationship from the Vulcan point of view? Would you choose a boyfriend/girlfriend over your own family? Should you?

Too many complex questions for me.

b) T'Pol had made it clear that she did not want to marry Koss. It may be tradition to do arranged marriages, but traditions are not LAW.

Actually they ARE, but don't make me explain it. It's incredibly long and boring.

[Kotik]

People here knows that I use Japanese culture and Ancient Rome culture to explain Vulcans. And following that example I reached the conclusion that Vulcans don't take many personal decisions. Vulcans are very clan or family based. Your choices affect your family. I know that for us, for the Western world, this is very weird, and even wrong, but it's perfectly possible for other cultures. Panyasan could confirm or deny what I'm going to say, but if I'm not wrong there is still in Japan the belief that the sins of your parents are your sins. If your father was a criminal, obviously you have many chances to be one (more if we take into consideration that everybody expects it.) Something similar happened in Ancient Rome, if one of your family members was declared a traitor, the entire family will suffer it. The. Entire. Family.

I tend to think that this clan liability practice was one of the un-suraky practices introduced by the VHC under V'Las. T'Pol calls it a criminal action during her conversation with T'Les shortly after Koss' visit. I don't think she would call a Vulcan tradition criminal. She may not be following all traditions (see broken betrothal with Koss), but her little rant with T'Les indicates that making T'Les a scapegoat for T'Pol's actions was wrong by then current Vulcan standards.

[Escriba]

True (see? I can admit others opinions )

But it's strange that in a society where people can't choose and even marriages are imposed by the family, somebody could have freedom of choice without consequences for the family and the clan.

[honeybee]

For what it's worth, I'll again say that I would have preferred the writers do something different than what was done in Home. But I still think there are redeemable elements.

And I do think that T'Pol was terribly emotionally blackmailed by both T'Les and Koss during the episode, and especially in light of her recent illnesses and lack of emotional control, she was very vulnerable and it is painful to see that her desires and personal autonomy were being dismissed. I've no doubt that T'Les probably contacted Koss the moment she heard T'Pol was coming home for a visit and they planned to pressure her into the wedding.

It's only when Trip seems to care enough about T'Pol to respect her culture and let her go - that T'Les starts to realize her mistake. Again, Trip senses T'Pol's being torn apart by family pressure and he chooses not to put more screws to her, which to me means he's the only one who respects her ability to make her own choices.

Vulcans are very clan or family based. Your choices affect your family.

And Escriba has a good point about other cultures seeing family honor as paramount. I think that's key to understanding why T'Pol acts the way she does. She's very adamant in the beginning about not marrying Koss - and remember she dumped him way back in the first season and seems to have no regrets about that. So, her desire not to marry Koss exists independent of her relationship with Trip.

It's only when the marriage is a presented as a way to atone for her dishonor and restore her mother's career does she relent. She may be willing to walk to the beat of a different drummer but she's not willing to harm or dishonor her mother to do it. It is difficult for western humans to understand, but my sense is this is a huge, huge deal for T'Pol - whether its right or wrong. Trip recognizes how important it is for her.

I cringe when I think of how vulnerable T'Pol was and how after seeing that she clearly has another potential mate picked out and seems rather content with the choice - that T'Les continues to put the screws to her. T'Les thinks she's doing the right thing, but especially in light of the fact that T'Pol is not bonded with Koss and can't stand to be around him - the idea of her having to satisfy his Pon Farr registers like rape to me. And I would imagine it does to Koss, which is a big reason why he eventually lets her go.

Even if T'Pol couldn't figure it out, T'Les, Koss or the priest should have at least suspected that T'Pol had bonded with someone else. I think that's a pretty big plot hole.

She may not be following all traditions (see broken betrothal with Koss), but her little rant with T'Les indicates that making T'Les a scapegoat for T'Pol's actions was wrong by then current Vulcan standards.

Absolutely, but I do think she wants to take the brunt of the consequences of this unfairness off her mother and onto herself. She's making herself the sacrificial lamb. Remember, T'Les never did anything wrong - the evidence against her was fabricated. If by marrying Koss, she can restore her mother's honor, she's going to do it - but there's definitely a sense that the situation is a total raw deal.

I think had the wedding not been pushed through so fast, and T'Les had had more time to observe the relationship between Trip and T'Pol, she may well have changed her mind about pushing the wedding. She seems to regret it later.