Weird TnT Dynamics

[Kotik]

Okay that's my signal to run far far away from this topic FAST!

True. T'Les was was a selfish cold blooded whore, who prostituted her own daughter. She deserved death and even that was too merciful. She's a despicable individual. A regrettable waste of skin and organs.

[WarpGirl]

OMG I know nothing about you right now. I'm in shock and I'm not kidding.

[Escriba]

T'Les could have been a fine character, but the guilt trip she sent HER OWN DAUGHTER on was too much and in the end she prostituted her own offspring despite knowing that T'Pol loved Trip and vice-versa. She could as well have been an Orion slave trader...

No, she didn't. Once she felt sure that Trip loved her daughter and that he respected the Vulcan heritage, she advised Trip to confess his feelings. That shows she didn't consciously want to ruin the life of her daughter.

I have a different reason to hate what T'Les (and to a lesser extent, Koss) did, and it is that they treated T'Pol like a child. They didn't tell T'Pol what was really happening (that her mother was a secret Syrranite and that her marriage to Koss was a safe-conduct to her.) They simply lied to her in a way that they knew --at least T'Les-- it would convince T'Pol (as it was to save her mother's career.)

And when the solid excretory product evacuated from the bowels hit the ardent follower, I can't imagine how betrayed T'Pol had to feel.

It's not about the marriage, it's about treating T'Pol as if she's five.

Again, T'Les chose Koss because he was her fiancé. The families chose the couple when they were children. It was the logical choice, as hard as it is to see.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, you have said that no son or Daughter would bring home a stranger to meet Mom and Dad. guess what? I didn't meet my Daughters guy uuntil they were hooked up. Know a lot of people who met their son-in-Law after the wedding. One friend met his son-in-Law and grandson on the same day.

That was not the Human Flag ship they travelled to Vulcan on. the flagship0 was Enterprise and it was in dock. I believe they travellled on a vulcan Ship so that rules out how Koss would guess that T-Pol would be visiiting Mother.

Mom did lay a Huge guilt trip on T-Pol. LOok at the episode again. You can see on T-Pol's face the guilt beginning to rise up. Mom did that delliberately.

I still think that MOther was in it tooth and toenail along with Koss. She did Protitute her Daughter. also believe that MOther knew she was going off to the Forge when she set up the marriage deal with Koss.

Didn't trust Mother one iota.

[WarpGirl]

Dear God in heaven thank you Escriba! Finally a rational arguement.

Silverbullet you might have accepted your daughter did that to you, but I get the feeling you didn't like it. And I said no PARENT would take a son or dauther doing that well. In any case you don't like other points of view anyway so I'm just going to watch.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, one thing a parent does not do is bad mouth a child's choice no mattr how wrong the parent might believe the choice is. It will just drive the child deeper into the other persons arms. Just have to accept what has happened and hope for the best.

Other people Opinions, my opinions, all the same they have the same weight.

[Kotik]

T'Les prostituted her own daughter, she had no right to live. It's a capital crime. She deserved death!!

[WarpGirl]

T'Pol never even slept with Koss. This is insane totally insane.

[Alelou]

T'Les prostituted her own daughter, she had no right to live. It's a capital crime. She deserved death!!

Wow. You definitely must have trouble writing any Vulcan POVs.

[Escriba]

We can see it from T'Les' point of view: "Eventually I would have to leave my home because the Government is going to arrest me. My daughter will be alone. She has no father, no connection to anybody since the VHC blames her for P'Jem. She will be a complete pariah. And I, of course, can't trust the Humans, pesky, unrelievable species. Let's try to marry T'Pol to Koss, since he was her fiancé anyway, and he can protect her thanks to his father, who is a Minister."

Things are much more interesting when nobody is the bad guy.

[WarpGirl]

T'Les prostituted her own daughter, she had no right to live. It's a capital crime. She deserved death!!

Wow. You definitely must have trouble writing any Vulcan POVs.

Actually he's usually OK at it. That's why I am shocked. Maybe his ribs hurt. Or the pain meds... I agree with you Escriba that situation at least, is much better without a baddie.

[honeybee]

Goodness me! Did my little analysis of Home start all of this? I only meant to say I thought T'Les was a complex, layered character. While she had personal reasons for wanting T'Pol to marry Koss, she also clearly thought the arranged marriage was the right and logical path. I don't believe that her concerns about the idea of her daughter in an inter-species marriage were invalid - just look at Terra Prime. (I also think that conversation is more proof of how emotionally involved TnT are at that point. They are clearly more than friends who had a one night stand. ) So, T'Les pushed the marriage on T'Pol for personal, cultural and logical reasons.

But when Trip gives up T'Pol up rather than put T'Pol under more pressure, T'Les recognizes that he is a good man who truly wants what is best for T'Pol and doesn't want to cause her any pain, even if that means giving her up. He's the only person in the whole scenario who is concerned with T'Pol's well being to the exclusion of his own wants and desires. I think this makes T'Les rethink her position, and she floats the idea of Trip telling T'Pol the truth. But as I said in the upthread, this isn't Season 1 or 2 Trip - he's learned the hard way that following your heart doesn't always lead to the best outcome.

[WarpGirl]

Amen! But no you didn't start this. Some of the males here just HATE the episode and catagorically refuse to consider any other options of looking at it. Even for fun. I've yet to see a woman catagorically hate it though. Uless someone's lying about their gender.

[honeybee]

Whatever T'Les's motivation is or what anyone thinks of it, I still think that something very noble about Trip being the one person willing to not put pressure on him. It reminds me of the king Solomon parable with the baby. Except that T'Les only started to recognize that the one who is willing to give up her daughter rather than cause her pain is the one truly worthy of her, and she didn't intervene, which she probably should have.

I started the discussion because Kotik was looking for redeeming things in the 4th Season - and that's a very redeeming thing that Trip did. I know some people interpret his refusing to intervene as weak or foolish, but I think it was motivated by love.

[michelle]

I thought all through Home that Mom was lying in her teeth.

1. How did Koss know that T-Pol was returning to Vulcan as there was a letter from him waiting for T-Pol when she arrived. Doubt if T-Pol told Koss that she was coming home to see Mom. so, Mother had to tell him which means Mother was in cahoots with Koss. It was set up from the beginning.

2, Mom doesn't look at T-Pol when talking to her. She is obviouslly lying by the look on her face.

3,=. Mom bathmouths a relationship between T-Pol and Trip suggesting if they have Kids they woul dbe treated as half brees.

4. Mom suggests that it is T-Pol's fault that she lost her job because of the incident at the monestary.

5. Mom lays it on Trip to stop the marriage. Mom should and could have stopped it before it got started. But whe she told trip to it was far too late as T-Pol was at the place the ceremony was going ot take place nad Koss was ready. No stoping it then unless T-Pol decarfed a Death match which she would not do.

always thought the kiss ws the booby prize for Trip

Home wound me up as well. Not that T'Les basically blackmailed T'Pol into it, but that the resolution was as easy as Koss turning up and saying, lets divorce.

It made no plot sense what so ever but to pull Trip and T'Pol apart.

And so I agree with you that T'Les may well have told Koss all about her daughter coming home.

Thinking about this, it reminds me of a chapter in my life when I was a kid. My mum and dad broke up, my dad didn't take it too well and so got my mother to let my younger brother go and live in france with my dad, a lot of crap took place in where my mother realising it was a bad idea, and when my brother was back in England, my mother plotted to disallow my brother from again leaving the country.

I wonder if T'Les did indeed plot with Koss to do anything in their power to get T'Pol back on Vulcan and away from these irratic, emotional, immature, dangerous humans that may well have brainwashed and confused her beloved daughter. They may view it in the same way as we would if one of our children ran off with a crazy cult and seemed to be cutting ties with friends and family.

The line that Koss uses... "I want you to be happy" just seems too un-vulcan, seems like him plotting to use the fact she has been 'brainwashed' by these humans to his advantage.

It's hard for me to think that T'Les or Koss could do anything that they thought would harm T'Pol, getting her home would seem the best thing to do, I mean she is acting crazy, not far from the fruitiness of V'tosh'katur or however you spell it.

Trip, T'Les was not expecting and I bet she was not expecting him to be as he was, totally besotted and respecting of T'Pol and her Vulcan culture and didn't try to change her into some reserved human. I think she grew to really like Trip in the end, and the fact he let T'Pol go made T'Les realise she made a mistake, but by then, it was too late to cancel the wedding, I think it would have caused a bigger problem to stop the wedding, and humiliate T'Pol and Koss and both their families, so she let it happen, assuming that when the whole syranite thing got out T'Les would again plot with Koss to release T'Pol.

That's how I like to think of it. T'Les seems too deeply concerned about T'Pol, to just prostitue her daughter to guy that was no good for her so she could get her job back.

T'Les says she joined the syranites for T'Pol and I think it makes sense. She knows her daughter doesn't fit in and when she finds she's ran off with a bunch of aliens, into a deadly part of space she starts to wonder what she could do to help her daughter find happiness at home, to the point of conspiring to change Vulcan government. I can't be angry at a women for going that far for the happiness of their child.