Major Rant : Angst

[panyasan]

Panysan and Escriba if I can somehow fully incorperate the principles you have so eloquently expressed in my own writing I would consider myself very blessed.

Me too! I always impressed by the great number of good writers we have on TRIS and the qualities of the stories. This thread really made me think about motivation behind writing and things you have to take into account while writing. I am in the process of finishing my multichapter story and looking back, I would do things differently next time, so this kind of discussion helps me.

[Kotik]

Me too! I always impressed by the great number of good writers we have on TRIS and the qualities of the stories. This thread really made me think about motivation behind writing and things you have to take into account while writing. I am in the process of finishing my multichapter story and looking back, I would do things differently next time, so this kind of discussion helps me.

Me starts a thread to rant off about angst and it sparks a helpful discussion, who woulda thunk it. I'm off to praise myself for a couple of hours ...

[Asso]

Asso why should you be displeased, I'm not displeased that you don't agree with me...

Because I'm a damned hedonist and have the damned flaw to try continually to drag the others toward me, to try to find some contact points under divergences, and when I fail in this attempt, I'm displeased. (Ehy! This is a cheerful mood, be sure! )
But anyway, a fact is undeniable: this discussion was great.

[WarpGirl]

Panysan and Escriba if I can somehow fully incorperate the principles you have so eloquently expressed in my own writing I would consider myself very blessed.

Me too! I always impressed by the great number of good writers we have on TRIS and the qualities of the stories. This thread really made me think about motivation behind writing and things you have to take into account while writing. I am in the process of finishing my multichapter story and looking back, I would do things differently next time, so this kind of discussion helps me.

Panysan Don't you dare change a thing! I love your stories as they are. You can't change it. I won't let you so there.

Kotik see you done good.

Asso I think you come by it honestly, I hope you don't get disappointed too much.

[Reanok]

One of my favorite stories is Zane Gray's Differential it has some great character moments for the whole crew. Wonderful Trip& T'Pol moments. Action ,Mystery,Andorian Pirates, Vulcans a really wonderful story. Yes it has some angst in the story but it does have a great ending.Also Dinah and Rigil kent's stories and The Rainbow's Foot by ShoukdKnow Better..There's alot of other wonderful stories I like that are angst free that I like reading too.

[Asso]

Excuse me, I wouldn't have wanted to open this discussion again, but I noticed just now something Escriba wrote and I didn't reply to, maybe because I understood that the discussion had reached deadlock, at least for me.

... Look, I think the problem is that, since this is fanfiction, and more precisely, shipper fanfiction, people has some kind of expectations. The main of them being that Trip and T'Pol should be together. And so, many of these fans are going to read anything and are going to tolerate even bad writing fics because they reflect that idea. OK, I'm cool with that. But if you like to read pamphlets then be honest and say you want to read pamphlets, don't criticise me because I've taken the characters to a point you don't like and say that's OOCness...

I think I have to clarify two thing:
First; I don't want to criticize anyone, less than less you. And when I do, I do OPENLY.
Second; Honestly, how could I criticize people because they took the characters to a point I don't like and say that's OOCness? I just said this is not important for me.

Sorry, if I made these last remarks, and sorry, if I, too, can sound harsh. It doesn't be my intention, but, sometimes, it can be difficult to be diplomatic.
Nevertheless I felt the necessity to make these circumstantiations
From now on, I will keep my mouth shut.

[Escriba]

I actually wasn't speaking about you when I said that. You usually say things like "I don't like to read about Trip and T'Pol in this or that situation" or you apologize for not reading further on because it's not your cup of tea or you give me a rant of why T'Pol would never sleep with another man

But I do think that, as fans, we can tolerate more mediocre fanfics with Trip and T'Pol as a couple than good fiction that don't have them as one. And some fans go as far as criticizing anything that don't have Trip and T'Pol like a couple or write them trying something with another person or something similar. Trip and T'Pol as a loving couple is what we desire, but it's a situation, not a personality trait.

I think fear to write something negative or positive about a ship is dangerous for an author. Understable from the reader's point of view, but limiting from the writer's POV.

Sorry, if I made these last remarks, and sorry, if I, too, can sound harsh. It doesn't be my intention, but, sometimes, it can be difficult to be diplomatic.

Are you kidding me? I think you're genetically incapable of being harsh

I am in the process of finishing my multichapter story and looking back, I would do things differently next time, so this kind of discussion helps me.

Although I can't see what's wrong with your story (I'm a little behind and I need to read what I didn't as soon as I can, but I loved what I read), learning and seeking for perfection is one of the great things about writing.

Is that wierd? It might be, I'm weird.

Then I'm weird too.

[WarpGirl]

You are so right. Putting TnT in different situations is not the same as being OOC. Although I personally don't think T'pol would sleep with another man if she is involved with Trip, but if she wasn't? Well anything can happen in an AU or a story about the past. And I admit I don't really read stories about Trip or T'Pol being with other people, but I like stories where they're both single. Why not? Anyway I do dislike stories where OCC is prevelant, mainly because it's disrespectful to the material that you're working off of. You might not like certain things but I believe you should work with them.

Escriba We can be weird together.

[Silverbullet]

Personaly I feel that TnT shold be treated with respect and dignity. That means as far as II am cncerned NO Rape of T-Pol while Trip i forced to watch or no Rape at all for that matter. nothing that belittles the characters.

Shoud not be too hard to write good stories without that sort of thing. I read ne series of stories where T-Pol was continuialy Raped as was Hoshi and the rest of the females of the Enterprise crew. Done for the shock value of the story. The series was nonsense. Ir was supposedly written by a woman but I doubt if a female would write about Rape much less like that.

[WarpGirl]

Now as someone who's written about assault before, I have to say it can be done respectfully. I DID NOT describe anything, I didn't go for shock, I merely had it happen. And well to generalize is a little limiting to an author, but I agree there are some freaks out there. Besides T'Pol was raped telepathically TWICE!

[honeybee]

Personaly I feel that TnT shold be treated with respect and dignity. That means as far as II am cncerned NO Rape of T-Pol while Trip i forced to watch or no Rape at all for that matter. nothing that belittles the characters.

I agree with you Silverbullet. While on the one hand, I believe writers should be free to express themselves in any way they like. On the other hand, I dislike "abuse porn" myself. Rape and torture are things that should be handled with absolute kid gloves and not for any sort of kick or thrill. Can it be done with dignity? Yes. But it is rare that I even enjoy that.

I actually love "Fusion" as an episode because it tells the story of a "date rape" without it actually being a physical rape. Too often on police procedural shows, sexual assault manages to be titillating while they decry it. And I hate that actresses are constantly forced to play sexual abuse victims. Fusion portrayed the trauma, without having it be lurid.

Reading this thread, I think most people want to read (and write) complex, interesting stories that balance conflict with the range of human emotions. If a story goes to much in one way or another, it gets thin. And people's milage may vary.

[WarpGirl]

I'm just saying that not everyone who deals with the subject is writing abuse porn. That's all. Yeah it's out there and it's sick, but to arbitrarilly say all authors who deal with the subject are being disrespectful and well... peverted isn't true.

[Escriba]

I know what you want to say, Silverbullet, but I don't think I like the word "belittle". Rape doesn't belittle a woman, as it doesn't make her "impure", "weak" or "good for nothing". And not being able to save the woman you love doesn't make you "less of a man."

Rape is a horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE act. Anybody who suffers it is traumatized for life.

I have three problems with rape in fanfiction:

1) Raping T'Pol isn't shocking or surprising anymore. It's done ad nauseam. It's like drowning Malcolm. Raped T'Pol was old even when the show was on (because as Warpgirl pointed out, she's been mind raped twice.) Personally, I think that there are a lot of not covered roads. For example, if you want to talk about hard decisions and how a military career is tough for a couple in the same ship, why not having Trip on Enterprise as a Captain at the moment, with T'Pol and Archer in other place and then making him taking the decision to leave them behind because it was the best for the crew and the mission? Of course, you don't have to kill T'Pol. She can come back and then Trip and she, as adults, would discuss if they can continue in the same ship and if they can't, who's going to change of post. Always because they want to be together.

2) Usually people who write about rape know nothing about it. People who are raped don't wake up three days later totally recovered, not even Vulcans. Don't use rape for a romantic end. Again, rape is traumatic. If you're going to write a story about rape because you really, really want to explore the implications of such an intimate act imposed by force to T'Pol (a Vulcan), then be sure to have read all what you could about the matter. And please, be empathic. We're writing about people, not robots.

3) The aforementioned lead to the fact that most of rape stories are cliche. You know, writing rape as bad TV shows or books or movies do, making it look like "oh, I've been raped, I cried yesterday, but today I'm better, pass me the potatoes."

Can you write a good rape story? Yes, with enough skills, knowledge and empathy. There is a book "Lucky" by Alice Sebold, who talks about her own rape. It's hard as hell, but it's very good. Unfortunately, in fanfiction this is not so common.

[WarpGirl]

The book Speak is hard too, the movie was also wonderful. The girl in Twilight did an amazing job. Still I mostly object to the assertion that all authors who write about it are, disrespectful and peverted.

[panyasan]

The book Speak is hard too, the movie was also wonderful. The girl in Twilight did an amazing job. Still I mostly object to the assertion that all authors who write about it are, disrespectful and peverted.

I don't think Silverbullet meant that. He was pointed out that he didn't like rape-stories, because - like he said in his example - they are often used for shock value alone and done in a perverted way.