Major Rant : Angst

[Alelou]

I just don't buy it. Archer is just too consistently patronizing to T'Pol to ever be wild about her. A Night in Sickbay has him behaving in a really OOC way, if you ask me, which is part of the reason I hate it. I forgive it as sophomoric humor playing off Phlox (who also seems out of character with his cluelessness in that one), but in general it's just off. Why would you want to destroy your main character by making him a laughable, self-involved buffoon? It was a crappy, crappy episode.

I'm not saying Archer is blind and wouldn't find T'Pol's bum just as interesting as Ensign Kelly's in that caption photo that's floating around in another thread here, but love? Nuh uh.

[honeybee]

Oh you are right, Alelou. Archer isn't in love with T'Pol. Not remotely. I do think that he has a weird crush on her, especially in A Night In Sickbay but in other contexts as well. It's just very far from love. More like curiosity with a little bit of possessiveness.

I'm pretty sure Archer is capable of being in love with anyone but himself, and he certainly doesn't have the character to become seriously involved with a Vulcan.

[WarpGirl]

In one of Aquarius' famous prompts I have Trip mentally compare Archer's feelings for T'Pol to Archer's feelings to Porthos. And NO I am not saying Archer thinks of T'Pol as a dog. But what I was trying to convey is that Archer thinks of T'Pol as His Vulcan Science Officer and First Officer therefore he seems to be under the delusion that in his mind he should be the first person she goes to for anything. (Including romance) Just like he is Porthos' master, therefore Porthos always turns to him. And frankly I get the feeling Archer sees his friendship with Trip in much the same way. That is my only explanation for his behavior in the Andorian Arc, because he treats Trip like a mere Crewman then, is like "Why do you want to leave? I'm your best friend talk to me."

To tell you thee truth my dislike of Archer has absolutely nothing to do with T'Pol and his teenaged boy infatuation. I just can't stand him as an ordinary man, let alone anything else. But he is good for turning up the angst.

[bluetiger]

I should know better than to stay up late reading this thread but I'm still sick and can't sleep. Can anyone mention a family fic without the words gooey and fluff. I realize that sex and pain sell, just watch the news but lordy you guys are making me feel depressed. The general consensus seems to be that no couple of mixed religion or race could possibly be happy. It can happen. You know, I'm sorry. Time for me to go to bed and stop beating this poor dead horse. Both of us need the rest!

[Kotik]

I should know better than to stay up late reading this thread but I'm still sick and can't sleep. Can anyone mention a family fic without the words gooey and fluff. I realize that sex and pain sell, just watch the news but lordy you guys are making me feel depressed. The general consensus seems to be that no couple of mixed religion or race could possibly be happy. It can happen. You know, I'm sorry. Time for me to go to bed and stop beating this poor dead horse. Both of us need the rest!

Exactly my sentiments. I think everyone can consent, that a relationship between a Vulcan and a human is not a walk in the park. Both will face challenges and both will have to work hard to make compromises and make their cultures compatible. That's why I like the rare stories, which concentrate on that, rather those where they miscommunicate and hurt each other and continually shut each other out until the angst-ridden reader starts to look for sharp objects for to slash his wrists with.

[Asso]

I should know better than to stay up late reading this thread but I'm still sick and can't sleep. Can anyone mention a family fic without the words gooey and fluff. I realize that sex and pain sell, just watch the news but lordy you guys are making me feel depressed. The general consensus seems to be that no couple of mixed religion or race could possibly be happy. It can happen. You know, I'm sorry. Time for me to go to bed and stop beating this poor dead horse. Both of us need the rest!

Exactly my sentiments. I think everyone can consent, that a relationship between a Vulcan and a human is not a walk in the park. Both will face challenges and both will have to work hard to make compromises and make their cultures compatible. That's why I like the rare stories, which concentrate on that, rather those where they miscommunicate and hurt each other and continually shut each other out until the angst-ridden reader starts to look for sharp objects for to slash his wrists with.

And once again I have to be with you.

[Alelou]

Leaving aside Bluetiger and Kotik's reaction, which I think must be to earlier parts of this thread that I have already forgotten...

WG, as always I think you're too hard on Archer. From what I see of his interactions with Erika, he's not incapable of a mature romantic relationship. It's just not as much a priority for him as being captain is. (Ditto everything, including his friendship with Trip ... and this is proper, if you ask me.) If they had something in the past before their mutual ranks got in the way, and Erika is fine with starting it up again, and I like Erika (which I do), then I tend to conclude that he's not a bastard. (Though I really would have liked some more hints in the fourth season that their relationship was continuing.)

[honeybee]

On angst. . . . my taste tends to be balanced. I tend to write somewhere in between pure angst and fluff and enjoy reading those kinds of fics, too. I really enjoy Aleou's missing scenes in Season 4 series as a great balance between the two. She moves them toward happy but addresses what went on onscreen AND adds a good measure of interspecies tension. Miss Anthropic's Cry Havoc series does the same thing. Again, YMMV.

As for Archer, yes people can be a little hard on him. I've always though of him as an jackass who can get the job done in a pinch, and I always enjoy writing him into my stories. And what was good about his relationship with Erika was that they were both "married to starfleet" and recognized that in each other. They were perfectly matched. Archer wasn't capable of dealing with a relationship with a Vulcan, crush on T'Pol or not, because he wouldn't have been able to make the necessary adjustments.

[Escriba]

I should know better than to stay up late reading this thread but I'm still sick and can't sleep. Can anyone mention a family fic without the words gooey and fluff. I realize that sex and pain sell, just watch the news but lordy you guys are making me feel depressed. The general consensus seems to be that no couple of mixed religion or race could possibly be happy. It can happen. You know, I'm sorry. Time for me to go to bed and stop beating this poor dead horse. Both of us need the rest!

It's not so much that family fics are fluffy, but that they tend to be (not in your case, honey), and I hate fluff, period. Personally I can't understand why family fics are usually so sugar coated, in my experience family is much more related to really absurd humor and crazyness than fluff. There should be more humorous family fics (like Mom and Dad and Self Sealing Stem Bolts by THECURSOR or Are we there yet? by Linda.)

[Asso]

How far we are about that, Escriba.

[Escriba]

Does it means that there won't be many humorous fics or that you and me don't think the same thing about family? Sorry, I'm a little confused.

[honeybee]

but that they tend to be (not in your case, honey)

Me? Awww. I try. In Implications, TnT get to be mostly happy because Malcolm gets to suffer all the angst. TnT exist as a counterpoint to him, but they do have to deal with stuff later.

And can I say how much I am looking forward to the next chapter of Mirage?

[Asso]

Does it means that there won't be many humorous fics or that you and me don't think the same thing about family? Sorry, I'm a little confused.

You tend to think angst has to be always involved with any thing. Maybe, but for me this is untrue.
And, in any case, I don't like the angst which is avidly searched whatever the cost . I don't like the perseverance in the errors.
And I'm firmly convinced that it can be perfectly described a family which has to fight against life (if you like that) by means of its being a "Unit", without trying to destroy itself.
Now, if you was so kind to read my stories, you was able to notice, perhaps, that it exists a "File Rouge" which ties all of them with each other: there is angst, in them, sure. But it is the angst due to the search of a delight which isn't forcedly at the end of a road made with pain and with blood.
And, personally, I don't find that fluff is boring. Honestly, if I have to be totally sincere, I find more boring the stories which try to grab attention with angst, and angst, and angst.
But I know I'm in the minority.

In addition, I have to say that, honestly, even if I like Humour, you and evidently aren't thinking the same about that: The Cursor is a very good writer, but Mom and Dad and Self Sealing Stem Bolts is not my personal cup of tea.

[WarpGirl]

Leaving aside Bluetiger and Kotik's reaction, which I think must be to earlier parts of this thread that I have already forgotten...

WG, as always I think you're too hard on Archer. From what I see of his interactions with Erika, he's not incapable of a mature romantic relationship. It's just not as much a priority for him as being captain is. (Ditto everything, including his friendship with Trip ... and this is proper, if you ask me.) If they had something in the past before their mutual ranks got in the way, and Erika is fine with starting it up again, and I like Erika (which I do), then I tend to conclude that he's not a bastard. (Though I really would have liked some more hints in the fourth season that their relationship was continuing.)

Alelou We're never going to agree, but just to clear up a few things... I don't believe I said he was incapable of having good relationships, I think he's good at letting them die. And I don't believe I referred to him as a bastard. Jerk would be more appropriate. Frankly it's not even his personality that truly ticks me off. He's a lousy Captain who makes lousy decisions. I hate that.

About dear Kotik's, Bluetiger's and Asso's assertion that we who like angst don't believe TnT can be happy... Not true at least in my case. If I can believe a former Sith Lord with amnesia who indirectly killed the love-of-her life's wife, can be happy; TnT have it so easy. I just prefer stories that don't portray things as perfect. But there are a few that it works, Blutiger's stories are a good example. So are Eian's.































...

[Asso]

...I just prefer stories that don't portray things as perfect.

I never said I love stories like these. I said that angst is as boring as fluff, and even more, if it is forcedly searched. And I have to add that the writers who are capable of writing good stories without going through the easy road of angst, are on the top, for me.
That's also the reason because of which "generaliter" I don't find AU stories (where AU are Universes totally alien from those we saw on the screen) not exactly my cup of tea: it is like if the writer were looking for making things good avoiding the Canon's bottleneck.
Hey! I said: GENERALITER.