TnT's Bond - How does it work?

[WarpGirl]

All I'm saying is that in what we SAW in the episode, there is absolutely no mention of either of them expressing that they were in love with the other, no more no less. And they even back that up in E2. I'm only talking about what was IN the episodes. So to say that was happened in the episode is A DECLARATION OF LOVE is rediculous. And whether or not they are in love isn't relevant at all to the discussion.

[pdsldl]

All I'm saying is that in what we SAW in the episode, there is absolutely no mention of either of them expressing that they were in love with the other, no more no less. And they even back that up in E2. I'm only talking about what was IN the episodes. So to say that was happened in the episode is A DECLARATION OF LOVE is rediculous. And whether or not they are in love isn't relevant at all to the discussion.

People say I love you all the time without words. I lived with a guy for ten years who never said the words but I knew exactly how he felt about me. Sim told her he had feelings that were more than his previous adolescent crush, couldn't stop thinking of her if she knew what he meant. With that and her jealousy of Cole she acted. it may have been premature and it may have blown up in her Vulcan face because she was unprepared for how she felt afterwords but that doesn't make it any less valid. Love is complicated and messy and not always vocalized. And if they had started a bond, which I think they had and I think was for Vulcans their way of dealing with love for a mate, it would only make it worse because neither of them were aware of it.

[WarpGirl]

In E2 T'Pol right out says that Trip can't have sex withouth forming emotional attatchments, something at that time she didn't want. I very much doubt there was any form of declaring going on. And Trip's reaction in that morning after was far from devestated or heartbroken. He was disappointed but it didn't seem like he was expecting a perminent relationship to form. Anyhow I realize they both know that they have affection and respect. But it's not anywhere near the knowledge of love that everyone seems to think they KNOW exists between them. I still think it's rediculous. They only seem to get a clue during the end of season 3 and definitely season 4. But I'll go you one better, I don't believe they started a STABLE commited relationship until after Terra Prime.

[Silverbullet]

Wapgirl, don't you think that they said anything between bouts of Lovemaking? We don't know how long they were in her Bunk. But not to say anything would be too cold and callous almost mechanical. They must have had some conversation. All we were shown was her dropping the Robe and kissing him Passionately and then change of scene we were left with our imaginations. It was confirmed in e2 that they did have sexual relations that night. I cannnot believe that they said nothing. did not make some kind of declaration that night once in her bunk.

[WarpGirl]

Nope I think they made love then the attack started no time, and by then T'Pol freaked. Period. It's backed up by every episode afterwards.

[honeybee]

This is an interesting conversation. I'll take the middle ground.

I actually imagine "the scene" in harbinger to have very little conversation but way more passion than the two expected - and I think they both pull back at the end of the episode out of fear. Given the nature of Vulcan touch-telepathy, I'm pretty sure things got really, really intense. It is, after all, a complicated situation and complicated relationship - but deep feeling is already there, we know from Similitude. Am I splitting hairs? She's pretending it didn't matter, and he's following suit. Both are in denial at this point.

I do think they made a declaration, silverbullet, but my guess is that is was non-verbal - either through the telepathy or the general amazing-ness of the sex. And I do think it was amazing. Given that Trip is definitely looking for more in the beginning of E2 and positively giddy at the idea of them being together in the other universe. She, on the other hand, is not culturally equipped to deal with their "bond" yet and tries to suppress it like a good Vulcan.

[WarpGirl]

I agree that things went supernova Honeybee kind of hard not too when you're dealing with chemistry, telepathy, and the fact that Vulcans are also empathic. Does that mean I think that either of them UNDERSTOOD just how deep they were in? No, not a chance. One problem I see in your arguement is that although I believe they were in the early stages of a bond neither of them KNEW that at all. Especially T'Pol because if T'Pol had known she'd realize that she can't just back out of a bond. They could decide to get it severed when they got out of the Expanse but a "good Vulcan" can't surpress it. It's the opposite of being a "good Vulcan." However because of that bond neither of them could seek out other companionship. Something that CT stated he didn't like. So the so-called declaration was a physiological one and burried deep in the subconsious. Although I think they knew that they had "feelings" for each other I'm convinced that until the end of season three they had no clue as to how deep they went, and what they wanted to do about them.

[honeybee]

I can believe that while the bond was forming, T'Pol might not recognize it as such. Even though she knows about mating bonds, she's never felt one and doesn't think one can form with a human. More accurately, she's trying very hard to suppress her feelings, like a good Vulcan. And she's failing. I tend to believe that by Zero Hour and the age conversation, she's all in. Until Home, where she's still all in but trying to do the right thing by her mother.

[WarpGirl]

Now THAT I can agree with!

[pdsldl]

So because they were cautious and didn't have their whole future mapped out making love was wrong. I believe the bond is the representation of love for Vulcans and how they were able to deal with such emotions but TnT were not aware of it's existence. Just because they weren't acting on a conscious level doesn't make it any less valid as an expression of that love. There's knowing and there's KNOWING. Can't always wait until everything is wrapped up in a neat tidy little package, especially when you might not live through the expanse and the Xindi. Their making love and the resultant passion they felt may be the thing that kept them together. It scared them but it also made their recognition of how they felt that much stronger and harder to ignore.

[honeybee]

And that, I can totally agree with, pdsldl. And without Harbinger, we wouldn't have the delightful sub-genre of TnT NC-17 fanfic that imagines just what went on in that scenes. I'm going to have to contribute to that one of these days.

[Aikiweezie]

And that, I can totally agree with, pdsldl. And without Harbinger, we wouldn't have the delightful sub-genre of TnT NC-17 fanfic that imagines just what went on in that scenes. I'm going to have to contribute to that one of these days.

I know WarpGirl and some others don't agree with me but I do NOT think they only made love once. (in Harbinger) I think, based on the more intimate nature of their interractions and dialogue, that they were sleeping together again FOR SURE before Home. And I also think it is very, very possible that they we still sleeping together here in there all along until she got married. Just my opinion. After er marriage, nop, but up until then, absolutely.

I think Trip was beginning to fall in love with her by Similitude and based on the tears in her eyes when he tells her he has feelings for her, she felt the same way - didn't know what to do about it, but she DID reciprocate.

[honeybee]

I agree, Aikiweezie. I think they were probably sleeping together from sometime late in the third season (Maybe the Forgotten, Maybe Zero hour) - and that age conversation is very much to me a Vulcan declaration of love. And that's one area where the writers were actually, gasp, smart. She would not have verbalized her feelings in the same way a human would, and by then Trip kind of gets it.

Plus, they had to have been sleeping together on the transport to Vulcan. After all, T'Les says they are romantically involved. Not friends who slept together once. The implication is that they are together and T'Les is concerned enough to be worried for their children that don't yet exist.

Others are free to disagree, because it is all very much subtext - but I think its definitely there.

[pdsldl]

I always thought when T'Les said Trip was the reason T'Pol would not bond with Koss the dialogue should have been could not. She was already bonded or bonding with Trip (still not aware of it) but her mother sensed the connection between them. The bond was going to win out in the end no matter what. Even if she had been required to stay married to Koss I think the bond would have forced the issue and Koss would have given up eventually. Only one mate allowed and she had already chosen hers and the bond would have only gotten stronger, especially since she went back to Enterprise and they were still spending time together. Probably much like Vulcan couples did after they married. A little formal at first but over time as they accepted the situation the friendship would reassert itself and the boned would just become that much stronger.

[Asso]

I think it is totally useless I express my ideas again. Honestly. I'm a little tired of trying to give voice to the obvious.