Trip's Mistakes

[WarpGirl]

You know there is so much debate over T'Pol's mistakes when it comes to the unstable nature of TnT's romance that I think the poor woman needs a break. Yeah she really did some damage to the relationship, but come on, Trip did some of his own as well. Nobody seems to think of that because we all (myself included) feel so bad about his broken heart. Well, T'Pol had a broken heart of her own and it wasn't entirely of her own making. Now I'm not saying that either Trip or T'Pol went out of their way to make a mess of things. NO WAY! In fact I believe that the mess was caused because they both felt they had to protect the other. Sometimes though, that is not the best option, because complete honesty is always the best option even if it hurts. Anyway these are the mistakes I've seen so far, please remember that I haven't seen every episode yet...

1. Well the first half of Season 1 Trip can be pretty atrocious to our lovely Vulcan. Granted, he learns VERY quickly (Archer never does, see *the_abomination* for proof of that, I know It's only a holo but it's the principle) that he is wrong and tries to make amends several times in season 2. Still, it had to be hard for T'Pol to figure out where she stood with our handsome devil of a Cheif Engineer. And while they made an art form of professional communication, their personal communication skills are non-existent.

2. To me Trip's biggest mistake is that he pushes on all the wrong things. He'll bug her incesently about food, movie night, Frankenstine, and her age. But he backs off when her behavior is obviously irratic and it's blatantly clear that she is not well. First of all, as a man in love, and as a friend, he should have been all over it like he was in "Cogenitor." Secondly, He's THIRD in command of the ship! He had a professional and moral imperitave to find out what was going on and if he couldn't report it to the Captain. Over 80 people and 1 dog's lives were at stake. It was irresponsible and unprofessional. And it didn't do T'Pol any good either.

3. He let her go. I'm not talking about "Home" that was the right choice. I'm talking about "Harbinger" and "Daedalus." If he had just remembered she was a Vulcan and looked it up in the database he would have realized that intinctively he was already her mate. That breaking up is a bad idea and that her psychological and physiological responses are DESIGNED for him to fight for her and not just to the death. Yeah it isn't the human way to go, she knows this, and that's the point. Why should she expect him to view a relationship on her terms. Look at how many women he'd already been intimate with physically and emotionally. They OBVIOUSLY didn't work. And he walked away very easily by Vulcan standards. T'Pol had to be wondering if Trip felt she was worth fighting for, and it semed that the answer was no.

4. He left her. Yeah again it's a reasonable HUMAN reaction, but to a Vulcan it's tanatamount to saying "You aren't worth it to me!" Sure Trip has no idea about it but the fact doesn't change that it would be that way for her. Also way to go with the misdirection that, "This thing between us isn't a bige deal" HELLO! It's a huge life and death, connection of the heart mind and soul. IT IS A MONUMENTALLY HUGE DEAL!

4. I put this down to shock but it's none the less slightly destructive. Accusing your mate of deception, and pregnancy, when you are mentally linked IS NEVER a good idea. You can't hide it, and knowing your mate doesn't trust you HURTS!. Yeah shock, and righteous anger, are to blame. But It doesn't take away the hurt.

OK that's all I've got for now. Let's discuss.

[panyasan]

I do agree with you that the favor seems to be on Trips side. He isn't perfect.
His actions do play a roll in the miscommunications between the couple. He doesn't confront T'Pol for example when she is going to marry Koss. I could understand if he would fight with her about her decision instead of the "I don't want to complicate things"-attitude. I can understand that for T'Pol his attitude comes across as "I don't care enough for you to protest or argue with you about your decision."
About the knowlegde of Vulcan customs, it works both ways. I think T'Pol doesn't get Humans customs and communications sometimes and it's the main reason for their miscommunication. For me her whole body language and the things she does, like inviting him to her family, make it clear that T'Pol cares deeply about Trip and the question is 'Does Trip get this clues?' (Maybe he did a couple of times, promting him to be so loyal to her.) Problably Trip has left some clues as well that he cares about T'Pol that T'Pol didn't pick up. It's a miracle that they ended up as a couple!
But I don't think that you can blame Trip for not being an expert on Vulcan things and the things he try to engage her in, like food, well, I see them as acts of friendship and friendliness. I think T'Pol recognized them as well as this. Also Trip is maybe attracted to T'Pol in season 2 (and she too him) but I would not call him a men in love. So I don't expect him to act like one.
Just a couple of my thoughts.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl. first, i Believe you must accept that Trip forgave and forgave and forgave T-Pol for Pushing hm away, fightng him, hurting him an causing him pain countless times. He ws a man deserperately in love with a woman who was alien to him in many ways, first as a woman (what man truely understands woman) then as a vulcan. but still he knew that against all reasonableness he Loved her and would until his last breath. all he wanted was to live out his life with her. but he was never sure where he stood with her.

T-Pol seemed to count on the fact that he would always be there that he would always forgive and even if she took his heart and stomped into the dust he would just pick it up and offer it again.

Mistakes that Trip made woud be error of ignorance. Not stupidity but simply that he didn't know the woman he loved.

I fault the writers for some of the dumber things that Trip did as mistakes:

The episode where Trip keeps saying that T-Pol should go to movie night. Triip should have asked her to go with him to movie night sit with him so he coud explain things in the film that she might not understand. Instead he doesn't so Archer comes up and says we will go to movie night and have dinner afterwards you will be my date. t-Pol goes and later we see her take a handful of popcorn from a bowl that Archer is holding. At the end of the Episode we see Trip, t-Pol and Archer all having dinner together and T-Pol saying she is looking forward to "Bride of Freakenstein"

That was the writers. giving us a little A/TP

fact is, I believe that many of Trips "Mistakes" were due to the writers.

IMHO

[WarpGirl]

OK Maybe I wasn't very clear, I have no problem with the food, movies, and all the other little things Trip nagged T'Pol about. That was sweet and very fun to watch and root for. My problem is that if he was so persistent about the fluffy stuff, where the heck was his persistant nature when she was falling apart at the seams? And YES T'Pol often forgot she was dealing with a human male, and they sometimes need pushing in the right direction, (with love, always with love) but again this is a woman who by custom and biology expects her man to literally claim her and say, "That's it YOU'RE MINE! Nothing and nobody will ever take you away from me. I'll literally kill before that happens." You can't just erase thousands of years of biology and customs that shape a psyche. Conversely "claiming" a woman only died out about a little less than 200 years (Trip's Time) on Earth. He's actively fighting the instincts that would make T'Pol believe they have a fighting chance of making it.

I realize his "Romeo and Juliet" analogy was stated because she was married, but if I was T'Pol I'd think he was saying, "Yeah we would have never worked even if you hadn't married Koss. We're probably BOTH better off." Not exactly a ringing endorsement that he would do ANYTHING to stay with her. Compound that by his leaving for Columbia and yeah big problems.

Also I don't think T'Pol ever had any intention of just hurting Trip and counting on forgiveness. If anything the poor girl seems to be completely lost. Here she has tried to save her mother, discover the true path of a Vulcan, and keep Trip in any way possible. And it's all a GIGANTIC failure. She probably has no clue why he doesn't understand, and no idea how to fix the mess. Everytime she tries it gets WORSE. No wonder she's a wreck by "Bound." Of course Trip is going through the same thing, but it's not just T'Pol's fault. Poor girl needs a break.

[panyasan]

.
T-Pol seemed to count on the fact that he would always be there that he would always forgive and even if she took his heart and stomped into the dust he would just pick it up and offer it again

For me she doesn't act that way. She is always very uncomfortable with bringing "bad news" to Trip.
And hurting him countless times? I can find 4 times when it seems she is letting him go. Very quick, sorry, because I have to run:
1. Harbinger. The most stupid after-conservation ever. T'Pol should never said that, but Trip takes the ball and runs with it. He ends with "and we don't stop NP."
2. E2. T'Pol cuts him of (she doesn't believe they have a change in this univere) but Trip is on to her. You don't want to admit that you have feelings for me is his entry-line.
3. Koss. T'Pol hates telling Trip this. Trip does nothing to prevent the marriage. (He is very supportive, I will give him that).
4. After her mothers death. She gives him the message gently, almost reluntant and he jokes about it. (I know to hide his feelings).
So it's a bit more complicated I think.

[WarpGirl]

Also in E2 she's got bigger things to deal with than a romance. She's in withdrawal, she's ashamed, (which is a good thing) she's got a temperol paradox that she has to solve so they can save Earth, and there is sill damage to fix, and a war to win. Trip's need for a romantic relationship at this time is NOT relevant to the big picture. Did she react appropriately NO. Neither did Trip. As for all the other stuff mentioned, Trip wasn't completely honest. Yes he feared rejection, but how can T'Pol know the right course of action without all the infomormation? She can't, and remember she's a Vulcan, her thought process is different that a human's. There is very little inuendo and subtext when Vulcan's communicate. Humans are almost ALL inuendo and subtext.

[Silverbullet]

Hey, I wanted Trip to fight for her in anyway he could even to risking a fight to the death. I hated that crap of his not wanting t upset her more. If she truely wanted him to fight for her she could have given him some hint of that, she didn't she just gave it to him and blind sided him on the Plains of fire when out of the blue she tells him she has decided to Marry Koss..

He said "You brought me 16 light years to watch you marry another man"

Trip didn't fight as he should have because he didn't get any signal from t-Pol that she wanted him to.

Sure Trip should have grabbed her and Said "You are mine and no one will take you from me but what would have been T-Pol's reaction? that is not HOw a vulcan male would have done it. It would have thrown t-Pol for a loop. A human woman would swoon. T-Pol's logic would be confused. Ape Men probably don't exist on vulcan. this you Jane me Tarzan approach might terrify T-Pol.

Sure, Hell yes, I would have loved to see Trip throw T-Pol over his shoulder and carry her off and dare Koss to do someting about it. elope with T-Pol marry her and present Mom and Koss with an accomplished fact.

Perhaps t-Pol might react positively, thrilled that Trip took the invitiave and claimed her.

[WarpGirl]

Ah but dear I'm not talking about her Kal'i'farr. I think he was right to hold back on that one. T'Pol had to help her mother PERIOD. It was the right thing to do no matter what. But you're wrong when you say cave men don't exist on Vulcan THEY'RE ALL CAVEMEN! That's why they follow logic so fanatically. If you are mated to someone male or female on Vulcan you are expected to fight for them by any means necessary. That's the whole point. Trip screwed up long before Koss entered the picture. When T'Pol made the first move she knew humans were casual about romance and sex, that's why she freaked out when she realized she was over her head.

She got scared and said "I better brush him off before some other alien woman captivates him yet again! Worse yet I've completely lost control, this is disaster!"

If Trip had bothered to remember that this is a culture that betroths children, he might have figured out that he had to step up and take charge here. Oh and by the way I AM a human female and if a human man tried to stop me from helping my mother by going Tarzan on me, Tarzan would have a severe pain in his nether regions. I wouldn't like it, but nobody tells me I'm not helping my mommy!

[Silverbullet]

Double Post, sorry.

In e2 T-Pol again fights and rejects Trip even in the face of Lorain and the fact that their counterparts married and had Lorain. Wondered why Trip was not sitting in on the meeting in the conference room as Engineering would be a large part of what Lorain was proposing. Later in sickbay when it is revealed that Trip is Lorain's father why wasn't Trip in sickbay too.

Later when she talks to her older self she denies what she feels for Trip by saying supposing my Heart doesn't know what it wants.

She forgets that the older T-Pol experienced everything she did up until the older T-Pol's enterprise was thrown back in time. so the Older t-Pol knows damned well that the younger t-Pol, like the older one, seduced Trip because she feared losing him to cole and that she lied to Trip the following morning. the older T-Pol too would have had that Dream of being with Trip in the shower. consoling trip over the loss of his sister.

so when the younger T-Pol says that her heart doesn't know what it wants the older T-Pol would know that the young T-Pol was lying in her teeth.

In the episode e2 I still don't understand why Trip did not see the older T-Pol this it would be awkward is nonsense.

I would have liked to see Trip and the younger T-Pol talking tothe older T-Pol. that would have been interesting.

I liked it when the older T-Pol said that she couldn't imagine life without Trip.

That was the older T-Pol giving the younger T-Pol the mesage that Trip would be her life if she just came down from her high horse and admitted to herself and Trip her true feelings.

[WarpGirl]

But again T'Pol has bigger problems than Trip Tucker in E2 and she really doesn't know what the heck she truly wants because the Pa'nar and Trellium D have got her head so screwed up she can barely function. Let alone pursue a stable relationship with a mule-headed human who didn't bother to find out why she's so messed up!

[panyasan]

Both of them act very passive. At the beginning T'Pol invites Trip, discusses her relationship with Trip with her mother and defense it, even disusses the posiblity of having childern with Trip. (She should have told Trip this BTW). Then Koss comes along, she sees no other option and tells Trip of her decision. After that, she is avoiding everything to make her marriage official.
Trip is happy to be traveling to Vulcan, seems to enjoy her company and their relationship, but why oh why doesn't he do something, anything. It doesn't make sense.

[WarpGirl]

Mothers are sometimes more important than Lovers/husbands. Treason is punishable by death you know.

[Silverbullet]

Whadda you mean "Mule Headed" male.

In opening scenes of e2 Trip comes in to help t-Pol. she gets angry at him and accuses him of wanting an intimate relationship. He denies this and says he just wants to help her as she helped him. doesn't sound mule headed to me. sounds lke he is concerned and wants to help her.

Later he is telling her about thier counterparts Honymoon and how he made a Sand pile and even a fake Palm tree. Again she gets angry with him. He stomps out saying he wonders why he married such a stubborn woman. Must have been the last one available.

This is not unusual treatment of him by t-Pol. She really broke his heart the morning after in Harbinger. When he approached the table with his cup of coffee you could see he was a happy man. He had made love to the woman of his dreams last night because she seduced him so he had every right to expect that she would be as happy as he was. Last thing he expected was to get shot down.that had to hurt something awful. I will say trip carried it off well by masking his pain and trying to salvage something by saying we will continue the NP?

But T-Pol respected Trips abilities and advice as an Engineer and I got the idea that when she talked to him about those things she was far more humane to him.

That must have confused hell out of him.

I don't see him as Mule headed, just hurt and confused by being jerked around constantly and not knowing what he has done to deserve such treatment when all he was doing was offereing his Heart and his Love.

[WarpGirl]

But dear don't you see to her he is sending mixed signals too! He tells her he is ok with "forgetting it happened" and then he's in her face about getting married and having kids. Also she's not rational right now, she's coming off being addicted to aa toxic substance and there's a war going on. She simply can't handle him in E2 and instead of finding out what's wrong, like he did in "Cogenitor" he throws a tantrum. She didn't expect to break his heart. After Ah'len and "Princess Fishstick" (THANKS KTR) how is she to know that she's broken his heart? She wouldn't know that, humans are the ones that can causually bed anyone they want. Let's face it Trip has been casual before, and it's not like he told her that he loved her when they made love. Jeeze yes he's mule-headed. He's a human man he's born that way.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl. It is prbably an insane man who tries to come between a woman and her Mother. However, Their are legions of men who cannot stand their Mother-in-law.
I hated mine.

Believe me, my wife made me pay for that too. Look at all of the MOther-on-law jokes around.

I believe that a lot (I cannot say most) feel that they should come first then children or vice versa but Mother should come in third.

I always said I would never wind up with a woman whose Mother was divoreced or widowed. I had seen to many case of "Mother" Well I unfortuantely did just that. Lived to regret it as I had Mother on my back for years. She lived with us as long as I could put up with her berfore I tossed her. that earned me a LOOOONG time of ice.

Finally gave my wife an either or. Mother comes twice a year for a few weeks in the summer and acouple of weeks around christmas. Or wifey goes to live with MOM on a permanent basis.

So mother only visited twice a yar but I have never heard the lst of it since. I get "You hated my mOther" answer, if I did you made me hate her.

Nope a man is suiciidle if he comes between a woman and her mother.