Vulcan Arc

[Silverbullet]

I was just painting a picture of a BEaruecrat. They are the same animal no mattter where.

You could have taken a Chinese BEaruecrat from the ninth century and dropped him into ninth century Brit Beaurecracy and taken a nonth century Brit Beaureucrat and droped himi in to ninth centry chinese Beaueucracy and both would have been comfortable.

In our time in the U.S. especially once a man gets by his probabtion perod it is aimpossible to fire hm he has a bombproof job. Oh he could get fired but it would take five years at least to do it and no supervisor would be willling to try as they would be worried that "something might happen" and they could get burned.

The Indians in India have made Bearuecracy an art form. When the Eruopeans first came to India it took 600 signatures to release a payroll in India.

So, all I am saying is that Father being what he is would not in any way help T-Les regain her position. It would be far too risky for him in his eyes.

Why Koss wanted to marry a woman who obviously did not want him is beyond me. But given the lengths he was willing to go to get her Daddy getting into it woulld not be unbelievable.

I believe that T-Les told T-Pol before the wedding that the High council forced her into retirement because they suspected her of removing files from the acadmy. but she thought that was a set up because they wanted to get at T-Pol. Guilt trip laid on T-Pol. It was probably true that T-Les was remmoving files and got caught and forced into retirement.

Whatever, daddy isn't a snake, but he sure isn't what you would calll a sterling character.

To quote Harry Truman in reference to Bearuecrats in Washington ""If you want a friend in Washinngton get a Dog."

A lot of those types thinking themselves good peole could walk under a snakes belly standing up.

[WarpGirl]

Ouch! Not only is Koss and his family corrupt backstabbing liars, but T'Les is one as well? Sorry I don't buy it.

[Escriba]

Well, T'Les was obviously lying when she said that she wasn't taking restricted data from the archives. She gave her answer looking at the opposite side to her daughter.

As for Koss, my theory (full of holes big as cathedrals but is mine and I stick at it) is that he never heard a no for an answer. T'Pol is his chosen mate, his parents chose her when they were seven because they were compatible and it was appropriate. It is the Vulcan way and he believes he can make it work. It is what it should be. It doesn't matter what T'Pol thinks. Notice that she says "letterS", "you received my letters" (with a "s"), so they had discussed it, many, many times. Apparently Koss is as stubborn as a mule (and a little dense.) Not evil, just delusional.

[WarpGirl]

OK I haven't actually seen "Home" yet so can we stick to the rest of the Vulcan Arc for a while until I do. I simply can't come up with good arguements without seeing the episode. However thank you all for giving me things to think about when I finally do see it.

[Asso]

Well, T'Les was obviously lying when she said that she wasn't taking restricted data from the archives. She gave her answer looking at the opposite side to her daughter.

As for Koss, my theory (full of holes big as cathedrals but is mine and I stick at it) is that he never heard a no for an answer. T'Pol is his chosen mate, his parents chose her when they were seven because they were compatible and it was appropriate. It is the Vulcan way and he believes he can make it work. It is what it should be. It doesn't matter what T'Pol thinks. Notice that she says "letterS", "you received my letters" (with a "s"), so they had discussed it, many, many times. Apparently Koss is as stubborn as a mule (and a little dense.) Not evil, just delusional.

[WarpGirl]

To tell you the truth I wanted more Trip and Soval scenes in the Arc I think they have much more chemistry than Archer. Then again SB has LIMITED chemistry with everyone even Porthos.

[Aquarius]

To tell you the truth I wanted more Trip and Soval scenes in the Arc I think they have much more chemistry than Archer. Then again SB has LIMITED chemistry with everyone even Porthos.

I agree. I like seeing Soval come to respect Trip...and I think eventually it would help toward having Soval in T'Pol's corner.

[WarpGirl]

Well by this point I'm not sure T'Pol needs someone in her corner professionally. She's got her own comission in Starfleet, and she did help find the Kir'Shara so I'm assuming she's not a pariah on Vulcan anymore. I just love it that Trip would bond to Soval because he's all T'Pol has left of any sort of family.

[Silverbullet]

I didn't say that the family were backstabbing liars. I jst suggested what may have hapened.

As for Koss he said you received my Letters that doesn't mean that T-Pol read them. She was through with Koss so she may have just dumped them in the garbage.

As for Mom I still say she was the Dog in theManger. The look she gave T-Pol on a couple occasions were hard. when seh insisted that T-Pol read the lettr from Koss the look was quite hard.

Think that Mom was only interested in "Tradition" and possibly what she believed that would accrue if t-Pol married into a family where the Father was an assistant minister. T-Les was not my favorite character.

I am still puzzled by the fact that T-Pol seemed to have forgotten that she and Trip had already mated and that she should have known that there was a very remote possiblity that a Bond had formed. To my mind that would have made amarriage to Koss wrong.

Hated Home as it was so contrived and useless as Koss divorced T-Pol a few episodes later. I mean just for some stupid Angst. I hate Angst.

[Aquarius]

Well by this point I'm not sure T'Pol needs someone in her corner professionally. She's got her own comission in Starfleet, and she did help find the Kir'Shara so I'm assuming she's not a pariah on Vulcan anymore. I just love it that Trip would bond to Soval because he's all T'Pol has left of any sort of family.

Career-wise, no. However, she doesn't fit very well into Vulcan society any more, Kir'Shara notwithstanding. She's been consorting with the Humans. She's still something of an anomaly, or depending on who you ask, maybe an aberration. If she ever wants to come home and have a place in her own society, someone like Soval could be helpful.

[WarpGirl]

@ Silverbullet Aw Well I agree to disagree, but I will bear your thoughts in mind when I finally see this much debated episode. By now I am pretty certain that it can not possibly be as good as the conversations had about it.

I don't know Aquarius T'Pau might not *approve* of our favorite girl's choices but I doubt she would be considered a social leper after the second "Awakening."

[WarpGirl]

OK Finally saw Home! YEY! So happy to finally stop being the odd girl out in the loony bin. What did I think? Well like KTR I think its one of the best of the series. Does it top the TNG version? Not for me but live and let live, it was still pretty awesome!

Major likes: Erika Hernandez! Beauty, brains, strength, and moxie! Boy Archer scored big! I hope he kept her. Not that we would know. Phlox was very vaunerable but I liked seeing his rose colored glasses crack. John Billingsly is a phenominal actor. I almost got teary for him. Loved all the acting except one person who shall remanin nameless, only because I haven't liked his acting since I was a very tiny girl.

Basically, I like Koss and I think there is enough evidence (voice tone, facial expression, and body language) to say I believe he is a good guy. But hey a well written evil Koss story is still appreciated, so either way I'm good.

I still believe that both Trip and T'Pol made the right choices for the circumstances. I applaud thier selflessness and they're commitment to the welfare of other people. Especially in Trip's case because his concern was completely on T'Pol's welfare, but he still showed dignity, and respect to T'Les. And yes I got all teary for him at the fireplanes. I am not made of stone.

T'Les... Well she is certainly complex! Do I think she lied? NOPE! I think she manipulated the situation to get what she honestly believed was best for everyone involved.

She was wrong. She learned her lesson eventually. I can empathize, forgive her, and move on. It was watching a mom lay on a guilt trip. Italian mothers do it well, I watch my grandmother do it all the time. But I don't believe for a moment she wanted to hurt or punish T'Pol in any way, shape, or form. She felt she was doing what was best.

Now as to Koss "blackmailing" well yes he did. I don't deny that. BUT I didn't get the sense he thought it was blackmail. His mannerisims didn't seem to me that he was doing all of this to force her into a corner. I think he honestly wanted to help. I think he honestly thought that following tradition was good and right. His parents wanted it. And it seemed to me he thought T'Pol already knew about T'Les' situation. The look on his face when she didn't know said confusion to me.

Conspiracy theory... T'Les, T'Mom, and S'Dad set them BOTH up!

All in all, I don't hate anyone. It was a hard situation for everyone and I blame the VHC for 90% of what happened.

As for the rest of the episode, Archer got coddled too much, but that's Trek. Is it OK that I giggled when he got chucked off the cliff in his nightmere? But I didn't hate him too much this time. I actually almost felt bad for him.

But what was with the freaky stadium landing pad in the beginning?

Oh PS... I know a lot of people seem to believe TnT had something going on in between season 3 finale and Home. I do not see it and this is why that whole line 'what does mom know about me? and 'you'd introduce me as...' Did you see the look on her face? It was the same on in E2 when she tells him to buzz off. She was no where near going to admit to him or mom at that point they were an item. But I think she might have been gearing up to a reconciliation before Koss showed up...

[Enerdhil]

Oh PS... I know a lot of people seem to believe TnT had something going on in between season 3 finale and Home. I do not see it and this is why that whole line 'what does mom know about me? and 'you'd introduce me as...' Did you see the look on her face? It was the same on in E2 when she tells him to buzz off. She was no where near going to admit to him or mom at that point they were an item. But I think she might have been gearing up to a reconciliation before Koss showed up...

Off course, I'm one of them. I disagree with you, T'Pol has agreed to be considered 'intimate' with Trip (ZH) and I don't expect that if she didn't have anything more than a single night of 'exploration'. It is not logic. As for look on faces, you shall not expect emotion display on Vulcans. And the very initial scene at Vulcan (in the entrance of T'Les's house) when she replies to his comment about clothing, the voice tone is a clear indication of a 'couple' argument (and, here, I can relax the comment about facial expression on Vulcans)

[WarpGirl]

Vulcans do have facial expressions. They might not be overt like ours but they do have them. I'm confused. In any case I know I saw Zero Hour and I don't remember T'Pol agreeing to renew a romantic relationship with Trip at all. Could somone post a link?

What I got out of that scene was that Trip was asking those questions to push T'Pol into both defining what they had been in the Expanse, and hoping she would say she was willing to renew the relationship. In short, his body language, tone of voice, and facial expression, said to me he was FISHING! I thought to myself, "Dude she's taking you home with her, now is not the time to get pushy!"

It's almost kind of a warm up for his actions in Bound. Trip wasn't the most assertive guy in their relationship. But he had his moments. I keep a mental score card...

In E2 he gets... A for effort, C- for execution, F for timing. In Home... A+ for effort, A- for execution, D- for timing. In Daedalus... A+ for effort, A+ for execution, C for timing. In Bound A for effort, B+ for execution (there is such a thing as overkill), A+ for timing.

At this point T'Pol wanted things to be on her terms, so she wasn't giving an inch. I can't blame her, after the Expanse she probably needed to have control over anything and everything she could, psychologically.

But that scene does not prove they were sleeping together based on what I saw of their body language and expressions. Trip was trying hard to re-start something though. Not that I blame him. I also think T'Pol was considering how to re-start things but wanted to go SLOW. Again I don't blame her for that.

As for one night not being logical, you're right. However, T'Pol hadn't been doing good at being logical for months. And Trip hadn't been trying for a while. So while not logical, I still say that's what happened based on what I saw.

[aadarshinah]

In "Zero Hour" she told him her age, which is considered intimate and can be read as a "I may not be ready for a relationship right this moment, but I am open to the possibiltiy of exploring one at a later date".

Agree with you on "Bound" though - a bit of overkill, but at least he was trying.