Rajin & Similitude

[Asso]

Do not you think Vulcans have a special place in Human heart?
And, excuse me, but I think they are barbaric. And cruel too.
Never I found them really advanced. Only formal.
But, obviously, that's my personal impression.
Because of this (inter alia) I love T'Pol, and because of this I love Linda's Vulcans.

[anaM]

I suppose we expect a lot from Vulcans and not from Klingons

[Asso]

I suppose we expect a lot from Vulcans and not from Klingons

Exactly.

[WarpGirl]

That's funny because they're not very different from each other. Think about it, they're both violent war-like speices who pride themselves on family and a code of honor. They've developed rich societies and cultural identities. But they have completely different standards of behavior based on the exact same principles. In case you haven't noticed Vulcans and Klingons are my favorite aliens. Really if you scratch the surface you'll see the similarities.

[Asso]

So, substantially you say I'm right, isn't it?

[WarpGirl]

Huh I didn't say that. Oh well I think this thread has taken on a life of its own.

[Asso]

The nature's revolt.

[Silverbullet]

Just jumping into this thread. Don't know if the followig has been mentioned.

In the Unexpected is seems that T-Pol is P.O.ed at Trip for getting pregnant and she blames him for it. She tells evgeyone on board he is Pregnant. I believe that is an inidcation of early beginnings of her interest in him and a twinge of Jealousy.

In Home, I still believe that Mama was hand in glove with Koss. She hands t-Pol a letter from Koss. but how in Hell did Koss know that T-Pol ws returning to Vulcan. doubt if T-Pol would have told him so the only way he could have known is for Mama to have told him. Also Mama insists that T-Pol talk to Koss even after T-Pol insists that she has nothing to say to Koss. also Mam bad mouths a relationship with Trip even to saying that any chldren would be half breeds and ostrasized.

I stilll think that Mama was the Dog in the Manger in Home.

Andorian incident. Don't know if you have any idea of covert operations but having listening posts all along a common border is sound military logic. I would think that both Andoria and Vulcan would have a line of lIstening posts along their common border.

So Shran bugging the Vuulcans about somethiing that the andorian intelligence would obviously know about was stupid. DEstroying the monestry to wipe out a listening post would be useless too as the Vulcans would have others and would just rebuild the listening post a short ways away. Lastly the vulcans would have to retaliate in kind or look weak. So the andorians would have to call up reserves and divert troops to defend sites they owuld believe the Vulcans might wipe out. In the Epsode the writers had the Vulcans wringings their hands and saying "Oh Dear" nonsense. they would have to retaliate hard. Stupid episode.

BTW, the U.S. and the Soviet Union during the cold war had listening posts all along their common borders. Neither side bothered the other sides posts and they both knew where the posts were located. Listening posts provide a lot of useful intelligence and examples of the other sides Coding systems for their analysts to try to break If Shran did what he did in the Episode in reality he would be busted and thrown out of the serivce as he probably would have started a really Hot war.

[Escriba]

As I understood the episode (so, you know, I could be completely wrong) the Monastery of P'Jem was in some kind of neutral zone (like the Korean Demilitarized Zone?) and in that zone, by treaty, you couldn't have any military building, post or whatever.

From the diplomatic point of view, and plain common sense, using a religious building as a military post is highly dangerous and illegal. It's like using a hospital or disguising a helicopter as a Red Cross helicopter. You just don't do that

But, on the other hand, I'm with you in Momma!T'Les telling Koss about T'Pol's arrival. It's what I always thought. That or Koss presumed T'Pol would come back home after the Xindi mission and he sent the letter just in case.

[Alelou]

Minor quibble, but I don't think T'Pol told everyone Trip was pregnant. I think he got paranoid and decided she must have.

But hell yeah, I think she acted jealous.

[Silverbullet]

I will have to go back and see the episode again but I do believe that it was in vulcan territory.

Legal, illegal? Putting a listeniniig post in a monestary Is possible..In WWII the germans supposdely established a observation post in the monte Casino Monestary which led the alllies to destroy the MOnestary.


As far as disguising someting as Red Cross the Germans did it extensively in WWII. Japenese failed to Mark ships carrying POW"s so those ships got torpedoed and sunk. those things ere against the Geneva accords and considered illegal.

In Unexpectedd it was never disroved that t-Pol told everyone on the ship that Trip was pregnant because it was obvious that everyone knew. doubt if ARcher or PHlox told and certainly not Trip so out of the four who knew that leaves T-POl.

[Escriba]

Oh, I didn't say it doesn't happen, I wanted to say that from the perspective of being in peace time, if you're trying to look like you respect the peace and the treaties and such, you don't put a listening post in a monastery because the moment they discover you have used a civil building, they're going to bomb every civil building you have. As I'm sure you know, that's the reason why those boundaries exist after all. It happens (I was going to say "all the time" but I'll be good and optimistic), but organizations like the Red Cross report them for the benefit of their own necks. Does a kind of Intergalactic Red Cross exist in Star Trek too? Or are Andorians and Vulcans so brute that this idea didn't ocur to them?

Following your idea, I find intriguing what was Shran doing there. I mean, in real life (I know this is Star Trek, but even then) doing what Vulcans were doing isn't such as a big deal as it seems because Andorians would be doing the same thing and surely they would not just know there was a Vulcan listening post, but also they would know how many men there were and even their underclothes' color. So, or we assume Andorian intelligence sucks big time, or we can assume that Andorians wanted a war and were looking for any excuse (I would use easier ways, but that's me.) So Archer discovering the listening post and then telling the Andorians is not what I would call a very intelligent move.

How can I end alway in the "Archer is an ass" argument?

[panyasan]

Escriba, Your 'Adorians were just looking for a excuse for war' makes a lot of sense.
Always found it strange that Archer chooses the Andorian side - he just met the guys! - and rallies against his Allies, the Vulcans.
See, there is no other way then to end with the 'because Archer is a jerk'-argument.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Once again I feel compelled to quote from one of my reviews, this time from The Andorian Incident:

The biggest fault though is the way Archer acted in the end. He gets miffed that the Vulcans had been lying and promptly hands over all the information to Shran. Granted that at that time the Andorians would still have learned that there was indeed a hidden Vulcan listening post, but could Archer have been any more co-operative? He knew at that point next to nothing about the Andorians except that they are violent - and he's got the bruises to prove it - and ready to kill to get what they want. Why give them the benefit of the doubt? The Vulcans might very well have been right in having this listening post if the Andorians as a whole were so volatile and hostile as they actually behaved in this episode. From a Vulcan standpoint it must seem logical to keep tight surveillance on such an enemy. And it's not like a freakin' listening post is such a big deal, especially not if it's located on your own territory! All countries do this today and no one complains about it. It's the nature of the game and a much more peaceful and less intrusive way to keep tabs on your enemies than covert espionage.

Then there's the fact the Humans are allies of the Vulcans. Why risk alienating your only likely friend, however snotty and condescending, in the quadrant on a whim? Was Archer so resentful of the Vulcans that he was ready to sell them out to their main adversaries because of this incident? Actions like this have repercussions (as we'll also see) and while a starship captain gets certain discretionary powers as a representative of his home government, in this case it would have been prudent to seek counsel and guidance from Starfleet Command.

[Escriba]

You're the Fontain of Wisdom, KTR

So it was Vulcan territory. My mind simply assumed it was some kind of neutral zone or something. Then Silverbullet is right, the episode has no sense.