If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby CX » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:39 pm

Rigil Kent wrote:Using Spock as an analogy doesn't work because A. Spock was in the grip of pon farr so he had SUPER!Strength, and B. Spock was a trained military officer so he was in much, much, much better shape than Koss.

I disagree, at least on the first part. The reason Kirk fought Spock to begin with before he knew what he was really getting himself into was that pon farr actually weakened Spock, either his strength or his discipline to contol it effectively, which would have made him an easy victim of Stonn, who was not in pon farr.
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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby justTripn » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:40 pm

Any chance you read my Home fic, "A Tour of the Firecaves"? Should have been "Fireplains." Oh well.

http://triptpolers.houseoftucker.com/fi ... aves.shtml

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There's a good one by Peter Simons called Ka'nut Kalifee. Well it's not Koss, but T'Pol calls for the Kalifee and Trip fights for her!

http://triptpolers.houseoftucker.com/fi ... lifi.shtml
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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby CX » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:43 pm

CoffeeCat wrote:Come to think of it, I've never really seen Tuvok in hand to hand combat and then B'Elanna was able to fight Vorik pretty easily...

Torres is also half Klingon. Wink
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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby Rigil Kent » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:44 pm

CX wrote:
Rigil Kent wrote:Using Spock as an analogy doesn't work because A. Spock was in the grip of pon farr so he had SUPER!Strength, and B. Spock was a trained military officer so he was in much, much, much better shape than Koss.

I disagree, at least on the first part. The reason Kirk fought Spock to begin with before he knew what he was really getting himself into was that pon farr actually weakened Spock, either his strength or his discipline to contol it effectively, which would have made him an easy victim of Stonn, who was not in pon farr.

If that's the case, then why did T'Pring not chose Stonn as her champion? If her intended could easily defeat Spock, it makes no sense to not pick him. Spock didn't seem to have much difficulty tossing Kirk around haphazardly.
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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby CX » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:45 pm

She explained her logic quite well in the episode. Wink
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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby aeverett » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:49 pm

Rigil Kent wrote:I'm not sure that anyone on Vulcan would believe that Lorian was TnT's kid based on his age and their steadfast refusal to acknowledge time travel. It makes an interesting AU, IMO, if he shows up during Home and T'Pol sees an opportunity for an out of the marriage. Does she take it, knowing that her mother would still be in danger? Does Lorian tell Trip about the challenge? If so, how does Trip take it if T'Pol decides to not exercise that option?

I still think that an AU Home where she invokes the challenge and Trip wins the challenge would be interesting. Do Vulcans treat Tucker differently now? Do they treat T'Pol differently? How does it affect Trip, emotionally and psychologically, knowing that he killed someone for T'Pol? How does that affect their relationship? Do they keep it secret? If so, when does Archer find out (I think it'd be amusing if he does during the Vulcan arc...)

Interesting questions IMO...
As for the first part, a simple genetic scan would likely raise just enough doubt and would offer a cause for postponement, not cancelation, but postponement. As Spock said in in the Undiscovered Country "Even logic must give way to physics". If Lorian gave himself over to testing by any Vulcan scientist who wanted a crack at him and his DNA, they'd eventually have to accept his claim that he was TnT's offspring, as his genome and his body would yield no other logical answer. They might try to put together some claim that he was some rapidly aging binary clone to protect the Vulcan Science Directorates position on time travel, but I'm guessing (and this is just a guess, not canon) that even just acknowledgement as him as a binary clone would throw a wrench into Koss' attempt to marry T'Pol, especially if T'Pol was freely claiming Lorian as her offspring. Even if he wasn't accepted immediately, the postponement would give them time to wrap themselves around the idea and Trip and T'Pol's acknowledgement of Lorian as theirs would ultimately, if it took a while, seal the deal.

As for T'Les, as I said in my initial post, the original question involved T'Les career not being an issue. Remember, when Koss first speaks with T'Pol, she threatens to challenge, and he says he accepts that, but he'll do what is necesary, then walks off, only stoping to deliver the news of T'Les' forced resignation when he's nearly halfway out the door. But I think if Lorian's presence won T'Pol a postponement, T'Les would have tried to convince her not to marry Koss in the interum. It was a time thing that in my view put the gun to T'Pol's head. There were likely other ways to postpone or get out of the match, even if it involved her running back to Enterprise and getting Archer and Star Fleet to ship them back out real fast, but things moved too quickly at that point. T'Pol was on Vulcan, Koss had already called for the marriage to be performed, and her options at that point were marry him or challenge. T'Les' situation and her likely fear that Trip wouldn't survive the challenge, were what pushed T'Pol to cave in. She didn't really have time to find another option.
Last edited by aeverett on Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby Rigil Kent » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:51 pm

I suppose. I'm hesitant to comment more on it because, while I liked Home, it and the entire fourth season TnT subplot was so fundamentally flawed in my opinion, that anything I say is likely to stir up crap that is best left ... unstirred.

CX wrote:She explained her logic quite well in the episode. Wink

Eh.

I stand by my reasoning. If Spock was inexplicably weakened (something we didn't see any hint of), there would be no danger to her intended mate. If, however, his mental faculties were impaired yet he retained his normal strength (or had greater than normal strength), Stonn is in danger. Look at the criminals on PCP who give cops so much trouble. You can hit them or shoot them and they keep swinging. That's how I saw Spock in AT.
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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby CoffeeCat » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:58 pm

CX wrote:
CoffeeCat wrote:Come to think of it, I've never really seen Tuvok in hand to hand combat and then B'Elanna was able to fight Vorik pretty easily...

Torres is also half Klingon. Wink


Yeah, but I think Paris can hold his own with her.
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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby blacknblue » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:05 pm

From Amok Time:

Kirk and McCoy turn their heads simultaneously to look over their shoulders and size up Stonn. Kirk leans toward McCoy and speaks in a conspiratorial whisper:

Kirk: Think Spock can take him?

McCoy: (looking disgusted and worried) In HIS condition? I doubt it.

It didn't specify whether McCoy doubted Spock's mind or body. But earlier in the episode McCoy goes on about how the Pon Farr is gradually killing Spock, weakening him and how if they don't get him to Vulcan soon he will die. So I am guessing that Spock has suffered so long under the debilitating effects of the madness that his reserves are drained.

Maybe T'Pring just didn't have any faith in Stonn's fighting abilities? Perhaps she thought he was a wimp?
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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby CX » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:12 pm

Or maybe it just made the most sense not to risk him since with Kirk fighting for her, every logical outcome was that she would be with Stonn.
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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby CoffeeCat » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:26 pm

^ that's the way I understood the episode.
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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby aeverett » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:34 pm

CoffeeCat wrote:^ that's the way I understood the episode.
It's not really a matter of interpretation. T'Pring explained her logic point by point, in great detail, in the episode's dialogue. Here's a transcript:

Spock: T'Pring ... Explain.

T'Pring: Specify.

Spock: Why the challenge? And why you chose my captain as your champion?

T'Pring: Stonn wanted me. I wanted him.

Spock: I see no logic in preferring Stonn over me.

T'Pring: You have become much known among our people, Spock. Almost a legend. And as the years went by, I came to know that I did not want to be the consort of a legend. But by the laws of our people, I could only divorce you by the Kal-if-fee. There was also Stonn who wanted very much to be my consort. And I wanted him. If your Captain were victor, he would not want me, so I would have Stonn. If you were victor, you would free me... because I had dared to challenge, and again I would have Stonn. But if you did not free me, it would be the same, for you would be gone. And I would have your name and your property, and Stonn would still be there.

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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby Dinah » Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:53 am

Things fell apart so quickly for T'Pol that I think she was simply grasping at straws when she mentioned the kalifee. Relations with her mother were strained and then whammo -- here comes a fiance she thought she'd shed three years earlier. I don't believe that there was any way that she would have endangered Trip. She wanted to get closer to him, not see him killed or injured.

Even if Trip was able to beat Koss, the odds are that he would not come out of the conflict unscathed; he could possibly be permanently disabled. T'Les would still be out of a job and Koss' parents would undoubtedly make her life extremely difficult. T'Pol would have a lot of explaining to do to Archer and Starfleet. Her relationship with Trip would undoubtedly be revealed and Starfleet might decide to split them up.

I'm not sure Trip would ever get over killing Koss. There is no doubt in my mind that he would willing fight for T'Pol, but he wouldn't want to kill his opponent. Koss hadn't hurt T'Pol or threatened her; he just wanted to get married. I'm not sure that Trip would ultimately be able to accept that that was a grievous enough sin to justify killing him. There would always be a cloud over his relationship with T'Pol, and I can see them eventually drifting apart.

In the final analysis, I don't think T'Pol wanted any harm to come to either man. She may not have wanted to be married to Koss, but I don't think she wanted to see him killed either.

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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby Rigil Kent » Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:24 am

aeverett wrote:T'Pring: If your Captain were victor, he would not want me, so I would have Stonn.

Two things. One, she clearly didn't know Kirk, and Two, I point to this as an indication that Vulcans aren't supermen. She clearly knows that there is a chance that Kirk could win which, to me, indicates that Trip would have a fighting chance against the Blackmailer.

I still question the wisdom of this entire plot thread when it clashes with Breaking the Ice. *shrug*
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Re: If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

Postby aeverett » Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:29 am

Rigil Kent wrote:I still question the wisdom of this entire plot thread when it clashes with Breaking the Ice. *shrug*
How, if Trip wins, he can release T'Pol, let her choose in her own time. It would be the ultimate affirmation of 'Breaking the Ice'. If T'Pol took the challenge herself, her victory over Koss would make her her own property, again, free to choose.

Also, considering later events in 'Bound', when Archer accepts the 3 Orion slave women, he goes to them later and tells them they are free. Even before that Rajin supposedly 'escaped' her captivity, she too tried to insist that she belonged to Archer, he corrected her immediately. In both scenarios, Archer never performs any official act of granting freedom to them, which leads me to believe there might be something official in either Earth or Star Fleet law that automatically frees anyone transfered as property to a Star Fleet officer or citizen of Earth. If Trip did fight and win, he might never have had the copasity to claim T'Pol, as his contract with Star Fleet, or his Earth citizenship, would have automatically released her, whether Trip decided to or not. Still, Trip would have done so regardless. I believe he'd chew his own arm off before 'claiming' T'Pol as his property, despite Vulcan tradition.


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