Relationship questions

[Aikiweezie]

I'm new here and I have a few questions/observations about Trip and T'Pols relationship. I tried to read through the forums to see if they came up before - forgive me if I missed them.

I have the last three episodes on my DVR and I'm spending waaaay to much time re-watching them.

1) Do we KNOW that their only sexual encounter (up until his return from Columbia) was in Harbinger? I only ask because I just re-watched "Demons" and Trip seems really unconvinced that T'Pol was never pregnant (initially). Do you think he would feel that way if it was a one-time thing? Sure, people get pregnant the first time on occasion, but I'm not convinced that it was a one time thing.

2) Phlox didn't seem surprised at all when Trip was questioning him about the possibility that T'Pol had gotten pregnant. Apparently SOMEBODY told him about their relationship, yes? Him, her, both?

3) In the episode that I understand that is call the "abomination" here, appropriately so, there is no mention of Trip & T'Pols bond. Are we to assume that they 1) broke up immediately after Terra Prime (NO FREAKIN' WAY - they were both grieving for their child - they were in love and deeply bonded - it was obvious) 2) Somehow they dissolved their bond 3) That once its gone it's gone forever and 4) When Trip was "dying" T'Pol was no where to be found. WHY wouldn't Archer call here!?!?! Why didn't Trip call for her?

[JadziaKathryn]

3) In the episode that I understand that is call the "abomination" here, appropriately so, there is no mention of Trip & T'Pols bond. Are we to assume that they 1) broke up immediately after Terra Prime (NO FREAKIN' WAY - they were both grieving for their child - they were in love and deeply bonded - it was obvious) 2) Somehow they dissolved their bond 3) That once its gone it's gone forever and 4) When Trip was "dying" T'Pol was no where to be found. WHY wouldn't Archer call here!?!?! Why didn't Trip call for her?

Ah, but the beauty of this holodeck setup is that it explains every bit of stupidity. This is made for entertainment purposes some 200 years later. Of course they're going to get things wrong. First of all, even well-documented things... and there are precious few things that happened 200 years ago that historians can't interpret multiple ways... can be radically altered for entertainment. Secondly, even details not purposefully altered can be lost to history, like who exactly was present when someone died.

I maintain that *the_abomination* was holodeck fiction 200 years in the future, and thus unsubstantiated, so canon ends with "Terra Prime."

[Alelou]

Exactly! I wrote a fic making the exact point: "Some Gaps in the Historical Record." It's only at fanfic.net, though.

Re your other questions -- I tend to agree with you, and no, there's no definite indication they only ever had sex once, i.e. in Harbinger (except perhaps for his reaction to the term "mated" in "Bound"). But I think you can fill in the blanks however you like. I certainly have done.

[justTripn]

What they said. I also have a story like what Alelou and Jadziakathryn are describing. The holodeck program was a historical reconstruction with many inaccuracies. At the time I wrote my story, I was pondering the historical record on Alexander Hamilton. People want to know if he had an affair with his sister-in-law, because they were so close and he had a reputation as a player. But other evidence says no, like the fact that Hamilton's wife approved of the friendship between her husband and her sister. My conclusion: the world will never know from this distance, and we shouldn't pretend to know.

Did Trip and T'Pol have sex more than one time? Possibly. They seemed pretty close by "Home." Luckily I never have to fill in those blanks because soon after Harbinger, the Trip and T'Pol I write about (E2 series) were thrown back in time 117 years.

Trip told Phlox that he and T'Pol had had a relationship. I'm sure someone can quote me the exact episode that this happened. You are right that Trip's suspicion that T'Pol had gotten pregnant implies probably more than one time. Also, in Home, when T'Pol invites him home, he asks, "What does your mother know about us?"

[Aquarius]

If you're coming at this from the perspective of a fic writer, I think you have a lot of latitude with points 1 and 2. The profic novels reference "Harbinger" as the only time they were canonically physical, but honestly, I think a case can be made for post-"Bound," because they seemed like they were committed to giving an actual relationship a go, though I'm sure they would've mutually agreed to take things on the slow side. And at the end of Terra Prime, when Trip said that Phlox said he didn't see why Vulcans and Humans couldn't have children together, I got the impression that T'Pol very much liked the idea of trying to have a baby with Trip someday. Just my impression from the way the scene was acted.

jT--Trip discussed his relationship with T'Pol to Phlox in "The Aenar."

Still, Phlox isn't a dumb guy, and I think he has a better grip on Vulcan physiology and behavior than humans, so maybe for him it wasn't hard to figure out a lot of what was going on between Trip and T'Pol on his own. I always sort of imagined that Trip's remarks were mostly confirmation of what he already suspected, if you know what I mean, versus any big revelation.

Regarding Trip's dubious response to T'Pol's non-pregnancy, some of that I chalked up to the fact that science is much more advanced then than it is now. Even if they'd only had the one time together, and she'd gotten pregnant, I assumed that science would offer more options than abortion or carrying to term. Like perhaps the fetus was removed and placed in some kind of stasis, for a "not now, but later" alternative.

As for your third point, though I haven't been at the TnT fanfic thing long myself, I've learned that most people simply ignore "The Abomination." Some choose to rationalize it, in that it was a holographic recreation of an event that was over 200 years old so there were bound to be inaccuracies, which is a perfectly legitimate explanation. Given that, though, then it's equally valid to just ignore that it even aired. Putting aside the fact that they killed Trip, I couldn't swallow that everyone was confiding in Chef all these years, least of all T'Pol. As for Trip and T'Pol's relationship, I find it way too contradictory to the road they were on after "Terra Prime." The loss of a child has destroyed many a relationship, sure, but something tells me that Trip and T'Pol are the kind of people who, with each other's help, could've risen above it and become stronger.

Just my loose change, for what it's worth.

[Asso]

About your questions ,my ideas are well known. My stories are built on the basis that Trip and T'Pol are a veritable couple, and I don't think I played against Canon. Well! Obviously "The Abomination" is not canon.

[Linda]

I pretty much ignore the Abomination in my Trip and T'Pol stories too.

[Alelou]

The only tricky part of ignoring the Abomination is that you'd think a detail like an officer dying would be pretty official. I think that's why the 'going undercover' or 'purposely being written out of history' angle of The Good That Men Do and any number of fanfics has so much appeal. There's one where Trip and T'Pol end up on Denobula that I just love, but do I remember the title or the author? (no)

I generally try to avoid the issue by staying before that point in the timeline, although I have been known to just go ahead and let Trip die.

My favorite fic that lives with canon as portrayed in *the_abomination* and answers the question, "How could Archer not call T'Pol to sickbay?" is by Infie at fanfic.net: Determined -- it puts all the proper pathos back into that situation and it really is one of the most beautifully written little TnT stories ever.

[Aikiweezie]

Thank you everyone for your replies!

I totally agree about "Determined", that is a really good story - despite Trip dying (I HATE THAT!!!!)

I can never forgive them for screwing that up - ending it like they did and killing him, I DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. it was a STUPID STUPID thing to do. Didn't Connor Trineer say it was a big "FU" or "Middle finger" to the fans from the B's? I agree with him. Trip's behavior was so out of character. If he knew Plasma would burn him/blow him up, too when he connected the thigies - and of course he would - he should said to one of the bad guys "here hold this," or SOMETHING!!!!! Trip knew better.

I, too questioned the "what does your mother know about us," line. If what happened between them was no more than an "experiment" or a one night stand there'd be nuthin' ta talk about! T'Pol didn't disagree with his remark either. They both knew by that time that they were falling in love.

Thanks for letting me rant.

[JadziaKathryn]

The only tricky part of ignoring the Abomination is that you'd think a detail like an officer dying would be pretty official. I think that's why the 'going undercover' or 'purposely being written out of history' angle of The Good That Men Do and any number of fanfics has so much appeal. There's one where Trip and T'Pol end up on Denobula that I just love, but do I remember the title or the author? (no)

I generally try to avoid the issue by staying before that point in the timeline, although I have been known to just go ahead and let Trip die.

My favorite fic that lives with canon as portrayed in *the_abomination* and answers the question, "How could Archer not call T'Pol to sickbay?" is by Infie at fanfic.net: Determined -- it puts all the proper pathos back into that situation and it really is one of the most beautifully written little TnT stories ever.

And Having Writ... is the Denobula story, and it's fantastic. One of my faves. "Determined" is also beautiful, in a painfully sad way.

[Aquarius]

The only tricky part of ignoring the Abomination is that you'd think a detail like an officer dying would be pretty official.

True enough. But then, even in their century, you have to deal with the Bureaucracy Monster. Things get lost, misfiled, destroyed all the time, even important things. And computerization doesn't necessarily help. (My mom can't get hold of her medical records because when her doctor's office closed, they were sent "somewhere"; where, exactly, that is, no one else in the hospital system knows. But supposedly they're there, even though apparently no one will ever see them again. ) You never know--that holodeck program could've killed Trip because some clerk didn't hear right or misread when he was supposed to register the death of one Charles Tupper.

Any way, yeah, going along with his death to a point is probably easier in some ways, but personally I'm not ready to overcomplicate things by figuring out the whys and wherefores of a faked death. For me it's simpler to just assume the program is just plain wrong, that things most certainly did not unfold the way they were shown, the reasons for which being relatively unimportant.

Trip's behavior was so out of character. If he knew Plasma would burn him/blow him up, too when he connected the thigies - and of course he would - he should said to one of the bad guys "here hold this," or SOMETHING!!!!! Trip knew better.

You're right. That is much more Trip's style, I think. I hate the way that whole scene played out. Connor's a great actor but even he was all stiff and wrong there--even before he publicly said anything it's easy to see he thought what he was being asked to do was wrong, I think.

[Linda]

Maybe I ignore the abomination because I have internalized that idea it was only a figment of Ryker's holographic imagination. I so resented the TNG intrusion into ENT that I cannot accept it as "real" or "canon", L L. And I like TNG, but I like it in its own century.

[Aquarius]

Yeah. That the whole episode just served to help Riker solve a problem was a tenuous connection at best. I mean, I liked how they stuck people from behind the scenes in crowd scenes and stuff, that was cool. But to do such an unnecessary tie-in to another series? Did they really think they were going to have THAT much trouble getting people to watch it?

And I don't know...the interviews and the coverage of the wrap party left me with more of a sense of closure than the actual episode did.

Any way, back to the relationship angle, aside from Trip's death, I felt cheated most of all that they told us that TnT's relationship went south, with no explanation why. It might've been okay if they showed us two people who desperately wanted to make it work but just couldn't...but instead it was just this "yeah, we're friends" vibe. It didn't work for me.

Although I do have to say that the only redeeming scene in the whole thing was when T'Pol was packing up Trip's things. Jolene played it very well, I thought.

[pdsldl]

I don't like that Trip died and I ignore *the_abomination* as if it didn't happen because of that, but also because they left T'Pol with no one( She lost 2 children, a marriage, her mother and then Trip) and they didn't even leave her with the dignity of being allowed to grieve for her loss. They portrayed her as if she was just sad that a friend had died not a lover or even ex-lover that she saw daily. And they never gave any explanation for what happened to the bond. Trip died and it didn't affect T'Pol at all, but Vulcan children formed a weaker bond that managed to call them back to Vulcan from lightyears away for the mating ritual. A bond that couldn't be broken unless the males fought to the death to claim the female.

However one rationalizes making 'Terra Prime' the end of canon works for me. As far as the questions about the relationship I agree there are many clues that would make one believe Trip and T'Pol were together. It's all open to interpretation.

[Asso]

I don't like that Trip died and I ignore *the_abomination* as if it didn't happen because of that, but also because they left T'Pol with no one( She lost 2 children, a marriage, her mother and then Trip) and they didn't even leave her with the dignity of being allowed to grieve for her loss. They portrayed her as if she was just sad that a friend had died not a lover or even ex-lover that she saw daily. And they never gave any explanation for what happened to the bond. Trip died and it didn't affect T'Pol at all, but Vulcan children formed a weaker bond that managed to call them back to Vulcan from lightyears away for the mating ritual. A bond that couldn't be broken unless the males fought to the death to claim the female.

However one rationalizes making 'Terra Prime' the end of canon works for me. As far as the questions about the relationship I agree there are many clues that would make one believe Trip and T'Pol were together. It's all open to interpretation.

ABSOLUTELY WELL SAID!