Love and Autism

[justTripn]

I guys. I saw this story and found it interesting: Navagating Love and Autism.

I may be off base, but I had considered that maybe T'Pol is a little like someone with Ausberger's syndrome: likes facts, can't read people's emotions. Getting a little more personal, I'm wondering if I'm the only one here who kind of relates to the story in this article (about a relationship between two people with Ausberger's syndrome). I've written some very nonromantic romance. I like relationships where you just have long arguments about some issue or trade facts back and forth. In any case, this article is about overcoming obstacles in romantic relationships, so there is probably something of interest for all our Star Trek romance writers and readers. ENJOY!

[Alelou]

That was interesting and heartwarming.

I'd bet money that one of my brothers lies somewhere on the spectrum, but he's never been diagnosed. Of course, anyone obsessed for years with the same TV show might also need to wonder this about herself, at times.

I have had students with this issue, and it's interesting how, if they will actually address it with the class, the whole group suddenly becomes incredibly supportive instead of making "what the hell is up with this dude?" faces. I conclude that most people are kind once they understand the problem.

[Distracted]

If you can put aside the tragedy of it for a minute, the whole "autism spectrum" thing is fascinating. Research shows that people with autism actually have a greater average number of cells in their cerebral cortex. That implies that there must be a genetic defect and/or a congenital/developmental/toxic/infectious/who knows what insult to the infant's developing brain, since in humans no new brain cells are made after age 2. Whatever it is, it affects brain development to a greater or lesser extent. Not all of the effects are bad, either. Most "savants"... those people who can compose symphonies at 4 or do calculus in their heads at 5 or remember the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica... are on the autism spectrum. But the teenagers in this article are very high functioning.

Here's another link, if anyone's interested, about a more typical person living with autism. He happens to be my nephew Beckett. The music video at the end is awesome, but have a hankie on hand when you click on it. My brother and his wife wrote and perform the song and my brother did the video.

http://www.theind.com/living-ind/9603

[Transwarp]

It seems likely there would be similarities between Vulcans and Humans with Ausberger's syndrome, just from a different root cause. Vulcans are aware of the emotional cues that Ausperger victims cannot see, but Vulcans lack the understanding of what those cues mean. They are raised in a culture where emotional displays are discouraged. A Vulcan child would never see his parents smile or hear them laugh.

Small wonder that when they get among more emotional species, they don't relate on an emotional level. They simply never learned how. Nor would they want to learn how; in their culture, it's not even a handicap.

Of course, Vulcans are smart enough to learn, if properly motivated, and T'Pol seemed to be HIGHLY motivated in that regard. (I wonder what--or should I say WHO--was the source of that motivation..?)

[Kotik]

I don't think there's even a shred of similarities between this sickness and Vulcans. This whole 'Vulcans don't have a clue about emotions' thing doesn't hold water. In fact, I think they know more about them than humans do. We just express them, while they have to recognize and suppress them. Never , at any time in the series, did T'Pol seem to be riddled by emotions. She was curious about experiencing them, but never did she seem to be unable to tell them. The 'jelousy scene' in Harbinger or the joke in sickbay at the end of Bound shows that she is fully aware of other people's emotions.
Take the infamous fire-plains scene in "Home". She knows exactly, what Trips feelings will be after hearing the news about her upcoming wedding and it shows in the way she reluctantly tells him.

[Transwarp]

This whole 'Vulcans don't have a clue about emotions' thing doesn't hold water.

Nobody is saying Vulcans don't have emotions (at least I'm not). The emotions are there, and they certainly feel them (if only fleetingly) before suppressing them to be meditated away later.

I think that someone raised in an environment where emotions aren't outwardly displayed would have some difficulty reading the subtle, non-verbal emotional cues we all use. As near as I can tell, Vulcans only have three facial expressions: I-am-fascinated, I-am-bored, and I-am-constipated.

How would a Vulcan recognize a smirk, a sneer or a look of bemusement, without ever having seen one before? How would they know what another person was feeling based only on facial expressions they aren't familiar with? I'm not saying Vulcans are never bemused, I'm just saying they wouldn't know that YOU are, unless you came right out and told them.

Eventually, they could learn to read others. But right out of the box? No.

[Kotik]

As near as I can tell, Vulcans only have three facial expressions: I-am-fascinated, I-am-bored, and I-am-constipated.

Vulcans TRY to have only three facial expressions, but they have a lot more than three. Just take Soval in the scene with Archer at Forrests coffin. His anger is plainly visible. They say that open expressions of emotions are distasteful, not unheard of. I think Vulcans do very well know, how to read emotions, especially those, who work with humans or other emotional species.

[WarpGirl]

<pokes head in> I can understand how the way Vulcans express themselves, can appear to resemble Asburger's and Autism. However, expression is a whole lot different than understanding. One very important thing that most people forget with Vulcans is that they are Empaths. Like Troy they sense the emotions in others. They just don't advertize it.

People with Autism and Asburger's have a much harder time processing and understanding other people's emotions. I watched a beautiful documentery on Autism and Asburger's on HBO, and they had a scientist on it with Asburger's, he and his wife told a story where they were having an arguement and he was cooking.

Finally he turned around and he said, "I noticed her face looked different but it wasn't registering. So I went and touched her face, and to my shock and horror, she was crying. When my back was turned I had no clue."

Of course the Autism and Asburger's scale is fluid. There are different levels of severity, and people live with it in different ways. But Vulcans are always aware of emotion, both their own and everyone around them. But because of their culture and belief system they find humans difficult, and visa versa. Bottom line Vulcans always know what's going on emotionally, they sometimes can't figure out WHY or what to do about it.

slowly leaves

[Distracted]

This is an interesting discussion. Although what Vulcans can or cannot do with regard to emotions is aways up for debate, their mental state being completely fictional, it's reasonable to assume that interactions between humans and Vulcans would be rife with misunderstandings. Even in the real world among neurotypicals (by that I mean people without autism) there are tremendous personal and cultural variations in the outward expression of emotion. So much so that individuals raised within families in which the dramatic expression of emotion is common may have considerable difficulty interpreting the much more subtle emotional signals of a less demonstrative partner. Similarly, a person raised in an emotionally reserved environment might have a great deal of difficulty dealing with a person who, to them, suffers constantly from embarrassing and dramatic fits of emotional excess. Attending my first Christmas celebration with my husband's family about 27 years ago and having to deal with his mother comes to mind.

[Linda]

I like this conversation. I am mulling it over but do not have anything useful to add right now.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Just a theory, but what if Vulcans are actually better at reading people's expressions (at least other Vulcans)? Since Vulcans suppress emotions and show very little of it outward, they may also develop the skill to read people when there's very little to read. It could be something really useful to be able to do, giving the skilled ones an edge, evolutionary and otherwise.

[Transwarp]

Just a theory, but what if Vulcans are actually better at reading people's expressions (at least other Vulcans)? Since Vulcans suppress emotions and show very little of it outward, they may also develop the skill to read people when there's very little to read.

An interesting theory. I'm not sure how they would develop that skill, given the scarcity of feedback. In a society that frowns on outward displays of emotion, would there even *be* consensus on what those displays mean? If I notice a tiny twitch at the corner of my Vulcan friend's mouth and learn it means he's amused, does it mean the same thing if another Vulcan does it? Might it not be irritation? Or nervousness?

And even if it was possible, wouldn't there be a social convention against it? Kind of the Vulcan equivalent of "it's not polite to stare": "Spork, have I not taught you not to ascertain the emotional state of others?"

Also. if as WG says, they are empaths (which I wasn't aware of), or at last touch telepaths (which I was aware of), then they could learn what you're feeling just by touching you. But they don't, which reinforces my thesis that they Don't Want To Know.

[Kotik]

Also. if as WG says, they are empaths (which I wasn't aware of), or at last touch telepaths (which I was aware of), then they could learn what you're feeling just by touching you. But they don't, which reinforces my thesis that they Don't Want To Know.

They do know, what one feels, by touching. There's circumstancial evidence of that in the series. V'Lar sensed T'Pol's disappointment in "Fallen Hero" from a distance, meaning at least some Vulcans have to have emphatic skills. Or take this T'Les quote from "Home":

T'LES: Have you informed T'Pol?
TUCKER: Informed her of what?
T'LES: You're in love with her. Vulcans may not express their emotions, but we are sensitive to them.

T'Les touches him and knows exactly, what he feels. So Vulcans have to be quite knowledgable about emotions. If you want to suppress something, you first have to know it.

[WarpGirl]

There are at least ten episodes out of all the ST series that intimate, or outright say Vulcans are empaths. 4 in VOY.

[Transwarp]

There are at least ten episodes out of all the ST series that intimate, or outright say Vulcans are empaths. 4 in VOY.

I did not know that. Thank you, ma'am!

T'Les touches him and knows exactly what he feels. So Vulcans have to be quite knowledgeable about emotions. If you want to suppress something, you first have to know it.

I agree that Vulcans are quite knowledgeable about emotions. (kind of hard to be empathic if you're not!) But that doesn't necessarily translate into an ability to read emotions from facial expressions. I still can't see how they would learn that, given what we know of Vulcan culture.

I also believe knowing something and experiencing it are not quite the same. For example, I don't think a Vulcan necessarily needs to know all the nuances of anger in order to suppress it. I have seen this handled many different ways in fan fics. In my universe, Trip's ability to handle emotions (based on a lifetime of experience) far exceeds T'Pol's. As a result, he is able to use their bond to expedite her meditation or help maintain her emotional equilibrium. In other fan-fic universes, when humans are exposed to raw Vulcan emotions their heads explode! (Metaphorically speaking, of course.) Either way works for me, as long as it's handled consistently. Don't give T'Pol super-human abilities to deal with emotions in one chapter, then have her suffer an emotional meltdown in another.

My Vulcan's are like babe's in the woods (compared to Humans) when it comes to dealing directly with emotions, as opposed to just suppressing them for later disposal. This is only fair, really. In almost every other respect, Vulcans put Humans to shame. They are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter, better hearing, and longer-lived. Surely there's ONE area where we have the advantage? Surely, a species that Vulcans deride as being 'overly-emotional' would *at least* be able to handle emotions better than them?

In my universe they do, but your mileage may vary.