Non-TnT pairings

[justTripn]

My real point in this post, though, is has anyone else noticed the relative lack of slash in ENT fics? It's not really my cup of tea, but if you look at other treks - take TOS for instance - you see tonnes. But you get to ENT there is practically nothing that a hopeful slash-writer could take and make into something. It's almost as if, after seeing the piles of stuff that was written for other Treks, the writers almost intentionally tried to keep from spawning anything that might be construed as slashy to a modern audience....

Idk.... It might just be because it's very hard to get one amazing duo like Kirk and Spock in a series and their attempts to do something vaugely similar with Archer and Trip wound up no where near as successful. Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it. Thoughts?

At HoT the Trip/T'Polers shared the board with Trip/Reed and Trip/Archer shippers (and got along great, having a shared enemy in the "Archer/T'Polers"). So I was very aware of the Trip/Reed, Trip/Archer fic. Let's face it, Trip is hot and displays a certain chemistry with everyone and anyone. Speaking of which: "Desert Crossing" looks pretty slashy to me, with Archer dragging Trip across the desert and feeding him and caring for him. So, no, I don't think the writers tried very hard to keep from spawning slash.

[honeybee]

You got that right, JT. I think Dessert Crossing is the favorite episode of Archer/Tucker slash writers, while the Tucker/Reed camp embraces Shuttlepod One. Personally, like you, I see more chemistry and slash subtext in Dessert Crossing - though I'm speaking theoretically since I don't write slash fics (though I've played with gay pairings in fics). But my impression is that they take the whole mentor/protege thing to a classical Greek level.

But yes, Trip seems to sparkle with nearly everyone he shares scenes with, providing all of us with fertile ground. I personally prefer him with T'Pol, of course.

[Alelou]

Hub and I were watching I Love You, Man last night and Jaime kept insisting the two main male characters were gay. I said no, but only because I'd read a review or two that said they weren't. The movie really did push the boundaries of what you would accept as plausible behavior between two heterosexual guys. (I enjoyed it, despite the confusing signals.)

It's kind of sad that close male friendship has gotten so 'suspicious' in our culture. On the flip side, I think it's healthier that we're not pretending homosexuality doesn't exist anymore, so that the guy who would once have been your 'confirmed bachelor' uncle can actually have a life and share it with the rest of the family.

Kirk and Spock always sparkled, but not a whole lot of people outside one crazed slice of fandom ever interpreted them as gay. That I can remember, anyway. But I'd say Trip and Archer had a way to go before they struck me as that electric, maybe because it really did strike me as an older mentor/young admirer type of relationship.

[WarpGirl]

What bothers me is is that any truly deep close friendships these days regardless of genders is suspect to a sexual connection. My best friend is male, we have no interest in each other romantically yet we constantly have to defend ourselves. Movies like When Harry Met Sally (the stupid line is famous) don't help.

So it's another reason slash writers have material. And write what you want, but not everything is sexual.

[Brandyjane]

What bothers me is is that any truly deep close friendships these days regardless of genders is suspect to a sexual connection.

I know what you mean! I think Archer and T'Pol were supposed to have that sort of close platonic friendship, especially in season 4, but the writers never quite made it believable. I think they made a really good start with early episodes like "Shadows of P'Jem" - minus the head in the boobs scene - where we see Archer fighting to keep his first officer. Another scene that comes to mind Shockwave Part II when he comes to her quarters in the middle of the night. I found that scene cute, not shippy. But aside from a few isolated incidents like those, we're supposed to believe they're BFFs and have this deep respect and friendship. I can theoretically see it, but I would have liked more exploration of that onscreen. I did not want Archer to be romantically interested in T'Pol, but I would have liked to have a sort of triangle where Archer, Trip, and T'Pol work through the implications of Trip/T'Pol on their relationships with each other.

[WarpGirl]

I don't think Archer ever came to the point where he treated T'Pol like a close friend. But some people do.

[Brandyjane]

That's what I mean. I think we were supposed to think that they were such great friends, but it didn't come across very well on screen. I can come up with a few times when he showed concern toward her such as "Shadows of P'Jem," "The Seventh," saving her in "Twilight," and accompanying her into the Forge. But overall it seemed like T'Pol had some sort of hero worship feelings toward him which he took for granted. There were far too many times when Archer spoke to her condescendingly or displayed distrust toward her or just discounted what she had to say. But I wish the writers had found a way to play up a platonic friendship between Archer and T'Pol while at the same time preserving a strong Trip/Archer friendship and a Trip/T'Pol romance. It would have been an interesting dynamic. For example, I wish Archer had reacted on screen to the season 4 angst.

[honeybee]

I wish Archer had reacted on screen to the season 4 angst.

You and me both. Friends or not, Archer does seem to depend on T'Pol's presence - even if to find out what he wasn't going to do, once she verbalized it. Plus, pre-Cogenitor, Trip and Archer were pretty close. If your two senior officers, the people you depend on most during your daily life - and people with whom you have something resembling a personal relationship - you're going to react. Also, I expect Archer would have been more pissed off that Trip left him because of a derailed romance with T'Pol, and I would expect him to recognize that as the reason.

[WarpGirl]

Personally, I think the Trip/Archer friendship pretty much was dealt a blow it never healed from in Cogenitor the relationship altered, and the best pals dynamic could not return. I think Sim also killed it a bit. And while both men cared a great deal about each other, circumstances just changed their relationship. By the time Trip left for Columbia he was shutting Archer out, and Malcolm was the person Trip was leaning on.

As for T'Pol... I'm not sure she ever wanted a friendship in human terms with Archer. I definitely believe she wanted his trust and respect. I believe she was very loyal to him, and that she wanted to support him because she believed in some of the things he was trying to accomplish. But she never let him into her life. She never discussed her betrothal to Koss, Tolaris raping her, Rajin raping her, her Trellium addiction, her mother's death, or her marriage and divorce.

So all in all, I'd say that both as individuals and as a couple, TnT were on a different path than Archer. And while I agree that it is something worth exploring. I don't see them having a close personal friendship between the three of them.

[aadarshinah]

Yes, but, ah, there was the possibility of a great friendship. Then again, I've always been partial to the Kirk-Spock-McCoy dynamic. I'd have like to have seen something similiar in the Archer-T'Pol-Trip angle, but none of them were really in the right place for such a relationship to evolve. Archer isolated himself too much, T'Pol was too Vulcan, and Trip... well, after the Xindi attack his head just wasn't in the right place.

I don't know if I'd call T'Pol's respect for Archer hero worship, though. She respected what he was doing, yes, and respected him as a person, but I don't know if there was anything admiring about it.

[pdsldl]

Yes, but, ah, there was the possibility of a great friendship. Then again, I've always been partial to the Kirk-Spock-McCoy dynamic. I'd have like to have seen something similiar in the Archer-T'Pol-Trip angle, but none of them were really in the right place for such a relationship to evolve. Archer isolated himself too much, T'Pol was too Vulcan, and Trip... well, after the Xindi attack his head just wasn't in the right place.

I don't know if I'd call T'Pol's respect for Archer hero worship, though. She respected what he was doing, yes, and respected him as a person, but I don't know if there was anything admiring about it.

I agree they implied a relationship between T'Pol and Archer that wasn't there in fact. I always thought T'Pol respected Archer as her Captain but she never showed signs of being his friend. She was Vulcan and it made it difficult for her to form ties with the crew and Trip was the only one who persistently forced the issue with her. That and he had the benefit of spending countless hours in an intimate setting breaking down her barriers. She talked to Phlox because he was the ship's doctor and helped Hoshi as a member of the crew. I saw signs that she could be more friendly in the decon scene with Malcolm and Hoshi after the stint on the Klingon ship but they didn't develop it. I think that was part of why the show failed. The writers failed to create a bond or friendship between the crew like they did in other shows in the franchise and it suffered. They were comrades in arms but things needed to go beyond being there for each other when it's life and death.

[WarpGirl]

I certainly don't think it was hero worship either. But I'm going to be brutally honest. The Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship cannot be reproduced. It just isn't possible! Even in the new movie, it's different. Aside from that it was a friendship between 3 straight men. They couldn't have had the same relationship with Archer/Trip/T'Pol because of a woman in the mix sleeping with one of the men.

I agree they implied a relationship between T'Pol and Archer that wasn't there in fact. I always thought T'Pol respected Archer as her Captain but she never showed signs of being his friend. She was Vulcan and it made it difficult for her to form ties with the crew and Trip was the only one who persistently forced the issue with her. That and he had the benefit of spending countless hours in an intimate setting breaking down her barriers. She talked to Phlox because he was the ship's doctor and helped Hoshi as a member of the crew. I saw signs that she could be more friendly in the decon scene with Malcolm and Hoshi after the stint on the Klingon ship but they didn't develop it. I think that was part of why the show failed. The writers failed to create a bond or friendship between the crew like they did in other shows in the franchise and it suffered. They were comrades in arms but things needed to go beyond being there for each other when it's life and death.

Amen, Amen, Amen, and Amen!

[pdsldl]

Too bad they didn't have the foresight to create that kind of relationship (Kirk/Spock/Bones) in the first two seasons and then let us watch as they struggle to deal with TnT as a couple in their friendship as well as in their professional lives.

[WarpGirl]

Very true, they kind of blew that with Archer's crush. <sigh>

[aadarshinah]

I certainly don't think it was hero worship either. But I'm going to be brutally honest. The Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship cannot be reproduced. It just isn't possible! Even in the new movie, it's different. Aside from that it was a friendship between 3 straight men. They couldn't have had the same relationship with Archer/Trip/T'Pol because of a woman in the mix sleeping with one of the men.

True. Be lovely if it wasn't though. I'm trying to think of an example of friendship between 2 guys and a girl from a tv show or movie that was close to the Kirk-Spock-McCoy level, but can't. Which is a shame. I don't want to admit the When Harry Met Sally thing quite yet, but...

On a side note, loved Karl Urban as McCoy in the new trek movie. And while the Kirk-Spock-McCoy relationship was definately different in it, it still felt real.