Daily science stuff

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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Distracted » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:47 pm

Crocodiles and snakes are carnivores, Kotik. The meat of carnivorous animals is gamier than that of herbivores.

Iguanas are practically the only herbivorous reptiles left on Earth. People eat iguana in some parts of the world. I hear it's pretty chewy, but I'd try it at least once if it weren't illegal in the US. After all, alligator tail tastes pretty good, even though they're carnivores. I like it fried.
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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Alelou » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:39 am

Alligator tastes fine, but the texture --- ugh. It reminds me of lawn chair mesh.

Taking your comment, though, I'm imagining that whether Humans are considered delicacies in some future disastrous first contact might depend on whether they are lifelong vegans or not... or is the gaminess programmed into your genetics by all your ancestors?
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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Distracted » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:08 am

Dunno about humans (ewwww), but in animals gaminess depends a lot on how the animal was treated prior to harvesting, what it ate, and how hard it had to work to get its food. Carnivores are gamey because they usually have to run their food down and they eat infrequently. This means that not only are all the toxins consumed by their prey concentrated in the meat of the carnivore, but they are in a constant state of lactic acidosis from the pursuit of the prey and from intermittent starvation. The acidosis makes the meat gamey.

Herbivores who graze peacefully all day on untainted fodder and are dropped in their tracks before they run have the sweetest meat. That and meat animals should be treated like the fine cuts of meat they are and not paraded around on the hood of someone's truck all day before they're butchered. People who say that venison is inedible haven't had it handled or prepared properly.
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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Kotik » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:44 am

Distracted wrote:That and meat animals should be treated like the fine cuts of meat they are and not paraded around on the hood of someone's truck all day before they're butchered. People who say that venison is inedible haven't had it handled or prepared properly.


Are you trying to tell us that there are people, who strap animals to their motor vehicle? What kind of fool thing to do is that? :shock: Is that even legal? It certainly would be illegal over here. Anywho. The 'edibility' of meat depends a lot on people's preferences. I know a lot of people, who say horse is unedible or rabbit. Both are mighty fine slabs of meat. Elk (or moose for the americans) is a bit on the chewy side and very dark, which turns off a lot of people. The best meat I remember ever having was ostrich. That was rather yummy 8) You can tell that I eat everything that has four legs and isn't a table :mrgreen:

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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Alelou » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:31 pm

You'd rather carry the corpse of a recently-killed animal INSIDE your car?

Moose is a protected species here. We don't eat it anymore. (Apparently we did, though, or it wouldn't need to be protected.) I never hear anybody waxing sentimental about the good old days when they ate moose meat. As it is most people I overhear talking about venison are debating about what parts of a deer are really worth eating and how to prepare it so that it tastes any good.

After looking out the window at my brutally chewed rhododendron this morning, there's a particular deer that I wouldn't mind somebody eating REAL soon.
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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Distracted » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:54 pm

LOL. I wish we lived closer. I know at least a half-dozen people in my immediate family who would just love to take care of that problem for you (and incidentally fill my freezer). And I have an awesome recipe for venison roast.

Aaaand... back to daily science stuff! The Science of Cooking Meat
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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Kotik » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:21 pm

Alelou wrote:You'd rather carry the corpse of a recently-killed animal INSIDE your car?


That's what you're supposed to do, yes. There are two ways for an animal to get killed. Number one is a huntsman sending a bullet through it. In that case, law dictates he has to put it INSIDE his car (usually they are prepared accordingly with a sort of tray in the boot, some even have cooling systems). As the next step he has to get it to an on-duty Vet ASAP and only after the Vet gives the thumbs-up it can (and must) be butchered. If that process cannot be completed inside a set number of hours or the Vet vetoes the use as food, it has to be delivered to a knackery immediately.
The second possibility is road-kill. If you have an accident with wild-life, you must call the police, who call the on-duty huntsman of the area, who again collects the animal or kills it, if it survived with bad injuries. It will then be delivered to the knackery by the huntsman. He, btw, is also the only one, who can give you the wildlife accident certificate. You can have half a shreddered deer in your cars front grill, if you don't have the huntsman's certificate, your insurance will accept no claims.

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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Weeble » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:10 pm

Ah hunting European style. No wonder my ancestors came over here. The best way to bring one home is in the back of a pick-up truck, they really look stupid on a mini-van or mini-cooper. In Michigan if you clunk one with your car you can keep it, but only one every 30 days.

Our deer license costs $15, $6 for senior citizens. If under 18 you need a Hunter's Safety certificate. Our season lasts 16 days for rifle and 90 days for bowhunters, there is even a special black powder season.
On opening day 15 November there are normally about 750,000 hunters in the field and about 250,000 deer are harvested each year.

You can also hunt elk, bear, ducks, rabbits, pheasant, partridge, etc. Anecdotally the Michigan legislature is not in session during rifle deer season.

Its a culture thing. Anyone can hunt, as it is not expensive or reserved for the elites. And oh by the way, there are very few accidents usually a couple I think this year was 3. There are a few deaths but those are usually out of shape folks pushing to hard. I don't hunt but my neighbors took 4 this year. Unfortunately the remaining gazillion ate my Arborvitae.
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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Kotik » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:17 pm

Weeble wrote:Ah hunting European style. No wonder my ancestors came over here. The best way to bring one home is in the back of a pick-up truck, they really look stupid on a mini-van or mini-cooper. In Michigan if you clunk one with your car you can keep it, but only one every 30 days.


Ah, hunting American style. No wonder my ancestors never followed yours ;-) So if you pile you car into a deer you can keep it.

Who
  • Makes sure that it isn't infected with something? I doubt all those people are vets.
  • Checks if it isn't a mother deer and makes sure that possibly orphaned bambies are taken care of?
  • makes sure that the deer is properly harvested?

Weeble wrote:Our deer license costs $15, $6 for senior citizens. If under 18 you need a Hunter's Safety certificate. Our season lasts 16 days for rifle and 90 days for bowhunters, there is even a special black powder season.
On opening day 15 November there are normally about 750,000 hunters in the field and about 250,000 deer are harvested each year.

You can also hunt elk, bear, ducks, rabbits, pheasant, partridge, etc. Anecdotally the Michigan legislature is not in session during rifle deer season.

Its a culture thing. Anyone can hunt, as it is not expensive or reserved for the elites. And oh by the way, there are very few accidents usually a couple I think this year was 3. There are a few deaths but those are usually out of shape folks pushing to hard. I don't hunt but my neighbors took 4 this year. Unfortunately the remaining gazillion ate my Arborvitae.


So if anyone with a gun can go hunting for a few quid, who keeps an eye on how much wildlife is killed? And who makes sure that the sick and weak, which actually need to be killed are the ones who eat lead and not only the ones that look best to make steaks and saussages out of? The slow and stupid are run over by rednecks in pickups, who were sent out to bring some roadkill for supper by the sound of things, but who decides which deer to shoot and which not and based on what education? And where do you get the neccessary education? I mean, hunting involves more than just pointing the business end of a rifle at some wildlife and pull the trigger?

Actually hunting in Europe (or at least Germanyland) is not reserved for the Elites either. Everyone can become an owner of a hunter's license. But it costs a tad more than 3.99 and it involves not only the right to kill yourself some supper:

  • You'll have to undergo astrict psychiological and security screening (for the weapons permit). Any history of mental illness or having been seen at a Nazi rally - you're out.
  • You have to go to 'hunters's school', involving things like ecological aspects, veterinarian 101, 'crowd management' for deer.
  • If and only if you pass both the hunters exam and get a weapon's license, you'll be assigned a portion of land for which you are responsible. It's not some 16-days-a-year-damn-the-rest fun, you are responsible for that piece of forest or land all year round.
  • You are responsible to keep count of the wild-life and kill animals if they reproduce too much or not to kill any if numbers are low.
  • you are required to kill obviously sick and wounded animals (for instance those who survived a road accident, but are badly injured)
  • You may actually be called by the police to the scene of an accident during 'on-call duty' periods, which you have once or twice a year in an area with an average amount of registred hunters.

So basically, everybody can hunt over here, too, but only if you're willing to take on the according responsibilities and undergo mental and security screening every two years.

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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Weeble » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:34 pm

Like I said, hunting European style. Us silly Americans have figured out how to maintain healthy populations of critters without the ridiculous governmental interference.

Why assume

1. That the beasties are infected with anything??
2. Deer are born in the spring. Hunting season is in November. Besides bears and coyotes need to eat too.
3. Properly harvested, what is that? Near the house I have seen signs the annual signs that either indicate deer processing for $50 or "put hides in the box" for those who would otherwise have no use for them.

additionally

most hunters prefer to shoot the bucks with the largest racks, doe permits are issued by each county with additional permits available for farmers who have excessive crop damage.

Hunter's make their own decisions, deer quality referees are not required

Hunting skills in most cases are learned from other family members handed down generation to generation, like I said its a cultural thing

by the way we had just over 70,000 car/deer accidents last year (in Michigan) the vast majority involving commuters with the useable meat going to food banks and the insurance companies wishing the season was longer..

The U S Constitution is clear on the right to bear arms. We don't need no stinking weapons permit.
Felony convictions and in some cases mental problems may prohibit gun ownership but the state has the obligation to make their case. Nazi's or not our Constitution guarantees freedom of association.

Hunters safety was a one day course mostly on survival if lost. It is assumed that most folks can tell a deer from a cow.

I cannot comprehend being assigned land. I can freely (in-season) hunt my own acreage or walk across the street and hunt the stateland.

Sounds like hunting over there is extremely regulated. Its not our way. We figure the critters can take care of themselves (they do) and the state can butt-out. Like I said we have a long history of personal freedom and responsibility here. Our system works quite well for us.

We also permit trapping and If my neighbor would get off his butt (he traps mostly mink and muskrats) there is a new group of beavers that need to go bye bye.
RIP Tom, I will miss you, as will many others

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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Weeble » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:42 pm

Oh I forgot,

Getting a bear permit for the annual season is more difficult, the permits are issued by lottery based on estimated bear numbers. My neighbor got his a few years ago and took a 400 lb boar (male) black bear. He re-enters the lottery every year but he tells me he is only guaranteed a permit every 26 years. Given that there are lots of the things around here, one likes to knock over my trash cans every spring for a few days, I hope he gets another permit soon.
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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Alelou » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:09 pm

I don't think Kotik realizes how wild much of this land still is. In Europe you're so thickly settled and hunting has been regulated for centuries if only because the good hunting lands were usually owned by rich people. Here, many people still hunt for food in the old frontier tradition or to save their crops and a few others because they're into some macho thing that we can only hope they'll get out of their system on non-Humans.

There is Chronic Wasting Disease (pretty much the same thing as Mad Cow Disease) to be found (rarely) among deer and elk in this country, so eating that stuff is not completely without risk.

That's not the only risk. A father was accidentally shot and killed by one of the two sons he'd taken hunting not far from here this fall. And where I used to live, a woman was shot dead in her own backyard by a hunter who apparently mistook her for a deer and apparently didn't know where the hell he was. (Some of the locals said it was her fault for not wearing red!)
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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Kotik » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:49 pm

Weeble wrote:Like I said, hunting European style. Us silly Americans have figured out how to maintain healthy populations of critters without the ridiculous governmental interference.


Sometimes gouvernment interference is not so bad.

Weeble wrote:Why assume

1. That the beasties are infected with anything??
2. Deer are born in the spring. Hunting season is in November. Besides bears and coyotes need to eat too.
3. Properly harvested, what is that? Near the house I have seen signs the annual signs that either indicate deer processing for $50 or "put hides in the box" for those who would otherwise have no use for them.


1. Why assume that they're healthy? Deseases happen to exist.
2. Hunting season over here is much longer, but way more complex. For wild boar for instance: shoats - all year round, Jun 16th-to Jan 31st for non-dominant females and Oct 1st-Jan 31st for dominant females, so there is a need for more complex education than what Gramps or Cousin Chuck told ya.

Weeble wrote:Hunter's make their own decisions, deer quality referees are not required


which is why many healthy and genetically precious animals get shot, while the less dominant and strong ones get to mate, because the bigger and stronger rival is now in cousin Billy Bob's oven. That maybe ok, if you think some dude from heaven made the Earth and all the animals. If you believe in genetics and the survival of the fittest, it's a rather sub-optimal idea. A weakened gene pool meanwhile means also that deseases are more likely to get a foothold.

Weeble wrote:by the way we had just over 70,000 car/deer accidents last year (in Michigan) the vast majority involving commuters with the useable meat going to food banks and the insurance companies wishing the season was longer..


You eat road-kill? :shock: Any animal that was an unwilling participant in an accident is going straight to the knackery over here.

Weeble wrote:The U S Constitution is clear on the right to bear arms. We don't need no stinking weapons permit.
Felony convictions and in some cases mental problems may prohibit gun ownership but the state has the obligation to make their case. Nazi's or not our Constitution guarantees freedom of association.


Which is why the mentally disturbed offspring of a teacher can run into a school and shoot 26 kids with an automatic assault rifle of rapid-fire setting. Mind you, we've had school shootings, too. I think it were 3 in the last 20 years and all comitted with hunting rifles, which by law can not be weapons that can hold more that two cartridges in the magazine. There is no legal way to own an automatic or semi-automatic weapon.
Could it be that you pay that glorious right to bear arms with the blood of your children almost every year? Gimme me our regulation any time.

Weeble wrote:I cannot comprehend being assigned land. I can freely (in-season) hunt my own acreage or walk across the street and hunt the stateland.


That's what I meant. Guys go out, hunt whatever takes their fancy and don't give a rat's arse about whether or not they actually shot too many critters or the wrong ones and for the rest of the year let other people take care of things like environmental concerns or wildlife, nature and landscape conservation laws. I think hunting comes with a responsibility. After all every deer that you shoot is a deer taken out of the ecological system by unnatural mean. It could for instance impact the local carnivorous population if too many are shot.

I think our regulated system works just fine and as an added bonus we have to worry a lot less about some nutters with pump guns or AK-47s. Works for me.

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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Weeble » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:14 pm

Government is rarely helpful, it's too good at helping itself.

As far as disease goes they are rare and when they pop up they are handled. We have all but eliminated CWD here in northern michigan after its highly localized outbreak.

Too complex for my taste. Currently boar and feral hogs are considered invasive species, shoot all you want.

I think Gramps knows far more about hunting than some university nitwit.

What happens here is that the smartest deer survive, the herds get better. Plenty of big bucks are taken annually, and lots of does to keep the numbers down. Helps to have lots of land.

Lets not do the God thing here. You are happy as an atheist and I am a happy catholic. And I'll keep praying for ya! By the way there is nothing in my belief that discounts evolution, you just disagree with me on Who started it.

Best backstraps I ever had were cooked with onions at a tavern, its a long story but suffice it to say that while a mom and her daughter were being consoled after wandering in from their car deer accident a couple of bartenders snuck out the back and scurried down the road...

The first thing dictators do is outlaw private ownership of guns. Better the occasional nutcase than another Stalin, Pol Pot or Mao; the slaughter tends to be higher in order of magnitude. Fully automatic weapons are outlawed in the US. since 1934 I think. You can keep your regulations, I prefer ours.

Given that man is a natural predator and we do belong in the ecosystem, how is that not part of survival of the fittest by your definition.

Bottom line, I do not trust any government. They must be kept as small as possible. I do not expect you to agree with me. I trust academic 'experts' even less.
RIP Tom, I will miss you, as will many others

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Re: Daily science stuff

Postby Distracted » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:31 am

This is veering into hotly contested political territory. I believe that both sides have been presented, so pretty please end this discussion here before things get ugly. Thanks, guys! - Distracted wearing her admin hat. :hatsoff:
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