education systems

[putaro]

Trip would excel in this kind of training, by the way, which is why I'm one of the few people who's willing to buy the idea that he didn't go to college. Under the American system, that definitely does not mean he doesn't have an engineering education, and one of the finest engineers I ever knew never earned a single college credit. (He could run rings around Ph.D. math students though.)

Good engineers don't take training courses. They teach them.

[Kotik]

I'm not sure where this would fit into an equivalency comparison between the US and European systems, though. Kotik, is there something in your system that's not quite vocational training but not quite college credit either?

Not really, but there are several "special" variants of College/University. First there's the University Of The Armed Forces. That was my originally planned path in life - becoming a professional soldier and as part of my officers training I would have studied computer science with the forces. But after my tour of duty in Somalia and the atrocious things I've been forced to do and see there (not counting that I almost came home in a wheel chair), I quit shortly after.

Another is the Berufsbegleitendes Studium, which is you can take up studying for a university degree while working a day job. Lectures are available as streaming media. Assignment are handed in online. At the end each Semester there is a month where you have to actually show up at the university (employers are obliged by law to grant unpaid leave for that). During that month there's a truckload of exams. When you graduate you get a fully recognized Master or Bachelor.

A third kind is the Volkshochschule (people's highschool). What sounds like something that could come out of China, is a state-run program, where working people can get education they didn't manage in their youth. For instance iuf you dropped out of school after eight years, you can finish 9th and 10th class as an adult to improve your professional chances.

A fourth is the Industrie- und Handelskammer (Chamber of Industry and Commerce), where craftsmen can become master craftsmen. Education takes three years. A master craftsman degree is needed to run your own business if your company is a crafts enterprise. Since my brother will take over the three companies of my father (two towing services and a repair garage) he had to become a car mechanic (3 years training) and afterwards another 3 years of master car mechanic training. He could have taken over as 'simple mechanic', but then the companies would not be allowed to educate apprentices.

Other than that, vocational training and college/university is strictly separated. It's either one or the other.

[Alelou]

lfvoy, you could possibly swing life on minimum NY state wage up here, if the landlord pays for your heat in the winter (and you could find rent cheaper than $800 a month up here if you're willing to live in less than savory neighborhoods). Judging from the folks we see in our food pantry, it's not easy. When you're living like that you're always one crisis (car broke down, an illness in the family) away from disaster.

Back in NJ/NYC area, though, that would have been in no way possible, which is part of the reason we moved up here (my husband had a good job, but my unreliable freelance income after I got laid off wasn't going to keep us comfortably in our mortgage). Most jobs in the metro area have to pay more than minimum wage, but still anyone making a low-skilled living usually has to string two or three of them together, or add work under the table, or something... you see a lot of 'something' down there. There's a whole second or third economy that doesn't pay taxes.

Pivoting back to education, I was surprised at uni in England to discover that doctors and lawyers just went straight into their studies, without having to get a general bachelor's degree first like they do here. On the one hand it seemed much more efficient; on the other, they suddenly seemed much less exalted without that long slog through all those years of (here, sometimes unbelievably expensive) education. You can see why one group may feel a bit less entitled to status and riches than the other.

[Kotik]

Pivoting back to education, I was surprised at uni in England to discover that doctors and lawyers just went straight into their studies, without having to get a general bachelor's degree first like they do here...

That should have changed by now, however, since such things are highly regulated by the EU. Over here doctors and lawyers have to go through years in the treadmill and a gazillion of state exams, too. In fact the job as a lawyer is a lot less attractive than it is in the States, as law doesn't permit those stupid naked-greed lawsuits, like suing your university for gobs of money, because they don't have warning labels on heater elements, that say you must not stand on them. That happened in Moscow, Idaho, while a friend of mine spent two semesters as an exchange student at the U of I. Some idiot fell out of the window while mooning passers by and then sued the university
Anyway, over here they have to earn their money the 'traditional' way, which they do by charging people in blood, through the nose.

[putaro]

Doctors in Japan go through a four year program rather than the eight year program of the US. I believe they are adequately trained, but miss out on the broadening portions of a liberal arts program, so not a lot of fun to hang out with. They seem to get compensated well nonetheless - we have several doctors in my wife's family and they are far from poor.

Lawyers in Japan have to pass the bar exam which has a 3(three) percent pass rate. That helps to keep the amount of ambulance chasing to a minimum.

[Kotik]

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what is ambulance chasing?

[putaro]

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what is ambulance chasing?

A pejorative term for when lawyers go looking for business, especially by finding people who've been injured in some way and convincing them that someone else is responsible for their injury. Like someone tap dancing on top of a ladder, falling off and then suing because there's no warning "Don't tap dance on top of ladder"

[Kotik]

Good grief. Hell must be chock full of lawyers. Although, they've probably sued the raw stuffing out of the devil for 'heating malfunction by negligence' by now