Love and Autism

[Transwarp]

Transwarp wrote:
Also. if as WG says, they are empaths (which I wasn't aware of), or at last touch telepaths (which I was aware of), then they could learn what you're feeling just by touching you. But they don't, which reinforces my thesis that they Don't Want To Know.

They do know, what one feels, by touching.

Kotik, on re-reading this post, I realize I was not very clear.

I didn't mean to say that Vulcans couldn't tell what you were feeling by touch (which is what it SOUNDED like I was saying). I was trying to say that even though they HAD that ability, they didn't use it (at least not in public). No shaking hands or casual touching. That's what I meant when I said "But they don't."

Touching seems to be a cultural taboo for Vulcans, which would make sense in a society of intensely private touch-telepaths who disdain outward displays of emotion. I think this supports my thesis that reading emotions from facial expressions is not likely to be a skill many Vulcans would possess. After all, the ideal is to show no emotion at all. The extent to which you can read my face is the extent to which I have fallen short of that ideal. (Not something you'd point out in polite society...)

[WarpGirl]

VOY's Meld is a great episode when it comes to discussing this. It also shows that some Vulcans have the ability to communicate telepathically to other telepaths without touching. And in addition to the wonderful Vulcan stuff it's an outstanding P/T episode. Although we never are told what's in the box.

[Asso]

Do you remember what I said once about the fact that Vulcans are just human with pointed ears? Oh I know, I know ... I know I don't make me very sympathetic in stating this, but - what do you want? - I think that way.

[Distracted]

What would be the point of all this if that were the case?

[Asso]

None in particular.
This is my usual personal problem when it comes to the emotions of Vulcans.

[Transwarp]

Vulcans are just human with pointed ears

And telepathy and green blood and incompatible DNA and twice as strong and twice as long-lived... Oh, and bad haircuts. Other than that, they're just like your next door neighbor!

Asso, I think Distracted is right: you're missing the point of all this. Vulcans are *supposed* to be different. Not just physically, but culturally as well. It's their differences that make them interesting, and it's through their differences--through juxtaposition with the familiar--that we can learn more about what it means to be human (at least in the good stories and episodes).

Science Fiction in general (not just Star Trek) does this all the time. Put Humans in unfamiliar settings and see what happens. It's why we read and why we watch. We already know what life in Dallas is like, but what would it be like on 40 Eridani?

Vulcan differences are what make Trip and T'Pol's relationship so interesting and compelling to me. If T'Pol is just the girl next door with pointed ears, where's the conflict? Where's the interest? Why bother to tell THAT story? We've all lived it. You can't add anything new or fresh. No, the Vulcans *I* want to read about are alien beings with a great many differences, and any relationship between a Vulcan and a Human will be fraught with challenges (both internal and external) that are not easily overcome.

[Asso]

I touched on this subject so many times that I am even surprised with myself by the fact per se I keep falling in this trap.
I believe that I won't do it ever again.

The final notation, however, that I want to make, is that it takes much more in order to make the Vulcans as true Aliens than what is constantly reported to support the assumption that they are Aliens different from Humans.

For me, in fact, they are not more different from me than how I perceive as different people (human) who were born and raised in distant lands and different cultures from my own.

I omit how I find absurd, and (personally irritating to me) that virtually out of the blue by the simple fact that one day it appeared Surak, a race violently aggressive and wild, to the point of paranoia, has turned into a race of cold fishes, in grace, hear ye, of a physiological ability of their nervous system to control their emotions (where it was, before, this physiological ability? Was it sleeping the sleep of the just?)

You see, I believe that each of us finds in Star Trek things he likes and things he dislikes. For me, this matter of the Vulcans who are different and Aliens by virtue of stupid trifles and insubstantial is extremely irritating.
A bit like the bad science in science fiction, I think, irritates you, Transwarp.

But enough is enough. I'm sorry. £xcuse me.
I won't fall in this snare ever again.

Certainly, and I finish, I can't honestly say that Vulcans, the way they are presented to us, are really appreciated by me (which, I think, makes me different from the others, this time).
Precisely for this reason I love Spock, very little Vulcan, in the sense that is normally given to this appellative.
And even more I love T'Pol, who (and this makes her even more pleasurable to me) is not even half-human, as Spock.

[Transwarp]

A bit like the bad science in science fiction, I think, irritates you, Transwarp.

Well, no, I am not irritated by bad science so much as I am distracted by it. I can't help but notice it (and if there are others watching with me I have a tendency to point it out to them, which THEY might find irritating come to think of it), and if I am noticing bad science, then to that extent I am no longer involved in the story. (If you are a screenwriter looking for a reason why bad science should be avoided, then that's it. Why unnecessarily distract your viewers?)

For me, this matter of the Vulcans who are different and Aliens by virtue of stupid trifles and insubstantial is extremely irritating.

I understand your point, and you are not the first to make this observation. TV aliens are typically not very alien. Take a human, stick some rubber bumps on his face, and PRESTO! Instant alien.

This is actually a corollary of my 'bad science' postulate, because 'good science' would result in aliens who are much more 'alien', both physically and culturally. As a general rule, if you want really 'alien' aliens, you have to go to print science fiction and avoid movies and TV.

I *DO* understand about make-up and special effects budgets so I am quite forgiving about this. I do notice it, and I acknowledge the validity of your point. I try to live within what we're given as canon, even if its completely unscientific, because to do otherwise is futile. I can ignore canon and make my Vulcans completely alien (or completely human), which also makes them unrecognizable to anyone else. Not sure I see the point of that.

[WarpGirl]

Leaving aside the physical similarities of humanoid aliens. Because really, in order to make live action movies and TV you need actual living people. Even Avatar needed people and horses... So the physical things are unavoidable. If you're going to say that there are no aliens because they are portrayed by human actors then you're missing the point.

We're dealing with fiction, and if a character on your screen has blue skin, its a good bet that you're watching a character outside of your normal everyday life. Unless of course you're a member of the Blue Man Group, in which case I'd say you live an extraordinary life and you should be grateful.

[Asso]

For me, this matter of the Vulcans who are different and Aliens by virtue of stupid trifles and insubstantial is extremely irritating.

I understand your point, and you are not the first to make this observation. TV aliens are typically not very alien. Take a human, stick some rubber bumps on his face, and PRESTO! Instant alien.

Correct.

This is actually a corollary of my 'bad science' postulate, because 'good science' would result in aliens who are much more 'alien', both physically and culturally.

Again correct.

As a general rule, if you want really 'alien' aliens, you have to go to print science fiction and avoid movies and TV.

And, in fact, at present that's what's happening to me (Sometimes I wonder if I really love Enterprise, or, quite simply, only Trip and T'Pol )

I *DO* understand about make-up and special effects budgets so I am quite forgiving about this. I do notice it, and I acknowledge the validity of your point. I try to live within what we're given as canon, even if its completely unscientific, because to do otherwise is futile. I can ignore canon and make my Vulcans completely alien (or completely human), which also makes them unrecognizable to anyone else. Not sure I see the point of that.

Correct again.
However, something can be done. Do you remember by chance a little of my "In The Hall Of The Mountain King"? In my mind there will be things, in the next chapters (something has already been done) able to reconcile the extremes.

[Cogito]

And, in fact, at present that's what's happening to me (Sometimes I wonder if I really love Enterprise, or, quite simply, only Trip and T'Pol )

The show was re-run over here recently and I found myself skimming over the non-TnT sections. Meh, fast spaceships and sharp bat'leths are OK the first couple of times, but it needs something more to keep me interested longer term.

[Alelou]

Watching ENT was perfect for weight-lifting, because I didn't need to actually watch it (except when TnT were on screen), but even I have grown tired of the DVDs at this point. Now what? Shows I haven't seen before suck too much attention from me, even fairly dull and repetitive ones like "House Hunters." (Also I get annoyed by people whining about things like the lack of a double sink and granite counter tops in the bathroom.)

Maybe it's time to run through the XF again. But I'm so over that one. Maybe it's time to try music instead.

[Asso]

It's nice to be in good company.