Question about interaction within the community

[Kotik]

Let me put it this way, leaving a comment that says "this story is trash, and the author loves abusing our favorite characters" is not an appropriate comment.

I think we've established that much I think I'll stop commenting on stories before I haven't slept a night over it. At least with a bit of distance it's easier to find the correct words.

I do think, however, that some authors are just overestimating their poetic skills. If one's attempting to write a story with potentially offending/upsetting content like torture or even rape (I recently blew a gasket over a story on FF, in which T'Pol was pointlessly raped and TnT's daugther serially raped over months ) then you darn well better be sure you get it right - and most don't. There is a story in our archive that contains a rape scene and does not offend me - it's part of Distracted's virtual season 5. That's one of the rare examples, where it is contained as a valid and substantial plot element, not for sheer shock factor or as a bulldozer angst-generating tool. Writing such tricky things take a skilled author and most I've seen trying failed at it. Hell, even the show's writers failed at it, because my main upset with such stories is that most authors fail to deal with the aftermath.
Take "Fusion" - T'Pol was clearly mentally raped, yet next episode, everythings fine again. That makes it pointless and gratuitious, which is always a bad idea.

Before I wrote my Chapter "The Betazoid Mission" for TOAL, I spent days pondering if I really should publish it or if it would be better to just have it binned, because I knew there'd be people, who'd be upset by some elements of it and I wasn't entirely sure if I could pull it of without making it sound like cheap T&A tittilation. Only after my beta told me "it's not my kinda thing, but well done" did I decide to publish it in the first place. Such sort of self-scrutiny is imho the best defense against nasty comments. As I've said before, that's no excuse for me acting too impulsive, but it can help avoid such things in the first place, because let's be honest, while we have some sort of QA in our archive, I've seen stuff on FF and in the W5C that should never have been published in the first place.

[WarpGirl]

Oh Kotik this isn't all about you. These are real issues in any fandom. And guess what all people need these reminders. I've made comments I regret and I've had to appologize myself.

[Distracted]

So have I. I think we've all done it at some point. I felt awful for months after telling an author that I wasn't planning to read anything else by him after a scene in one of his stories that I found both disgusting and tremendously disrespectful (of Jolene herself rather than just disrespectful of the character of T'Pol). Long story. But I learned from it. Now I would probably pm the author to tell him how disappointed I was in his choice of subject matter and I would definitely not have subjected him to public humiliation. I still don't read his work, but that's my choice, and not something that I should have so publically announced. He's not a member here, so he won't recognize himself in this post. That's the only reason why I feel comfortable even talking about it here.

And the fact of the matter remains that I was wrong to insult him like that. I should have refrained from commenting, slept on it, and then communicated with him privately if I still felt the need to do so. It turns out that he was having some significant emotional problems. He was using the story to purge some issues he was having and my comment (among others) made things much worse. He ended up asking the moderators to remove the story and then disappeared for a year or more. In my opinion it should never have been posted to begin with, but apparently the story poster didn't read the story before she put it up and so had no idea of the potentially controversial content. That generally doesn't happen here, which is why I'm much more comfortable reading stories posted here than at an author-posted site like ff.net.

[WarpGirl]

Amen. I usually only read stories on FF.net when the fandom doesn't have another main hub like this one.

What scares me is when people think that they have the right to hurl terrible insults to people who post their story. Simply because they think it's bad.

[Kotik]

What scares me is when people think that they have the right to hurl terrible insults to people who post their story. Simply because they think it's bad.

Nobody sees it has his or her right and most feel bad about it afterwards. God knows how often I've woken up in the morning and the first I remembered was a particularily nasty diatribe I posted the night before, because I worked myself up into a rage over specific discussion and didn't have the common sense just to stop posting once I notice that my blood's starting to boil. Sometimes I was so ashamed I didn't look into the forum for days, fearing that Elessar would kick me out. I still blame myself for scaring Alelou away after a particularily nasty exchange back in december

As Dis has written, it's the same thing on both sides. There are authors suffering from problems trying to work through them with stories that should never be published in the first place. Then there's people like me, who have major emotional issues with certain things (for me it's rape, because I've experienced the ruin that is the life of a rape victim. I lived with a rape victim for years). But that does not absolve me from being aware of such issues, so I need to work harder on my own conduct. I certainly don't see it as my god-given right to humiliate people or hurl abuse at them.

[WarpGirl]

Kotik I wasn't being specific. There are people in every fandom including this one that feel that way. If you look back in this thread there are several posts that say exactly that.

Look it's happened to me in the SW's fandom more than once. This isn't something unique to a certain place or person. It happens.

[marchale]

Well, I think when it comes to a touchy subject like character death, torture, rape, forced sex (I agree with SB about that being the same thing as rape) an author should put a warning about it so a reader can choose if they want to read it. Having lost my virginity to a rapist, I wouldn't care to read a story containing it for gratuitous purposes, although I have also seen the subject handled in a thoughtful way, such as Chakotay rescuing B'Elanna from a rapist who would've afterwards murdered her as well too as was mentioned in Jeri Taylor's book 'Pathways'. (She did it to explain that was how B'Elanna initially met Chakotay). But I know that I developed a real hatred towards TPTB for killing Trip in "The Abomination" (not that I was very fond of them before that for numerous other reasons anyway), so I think touchy subjects should be handled very cautiously (if at all) when you know folks can be very sensitive about how you treat their beloved characters.

But yeah, it was a very important point there to mention that you don't know how your words might affect a writer (or other type of artist too). In the past, I've left other forums, groups, etc over such things. And even though it wasn't meant as disrespect at all, it still hurts a lot that my own sister (as well as other friends whose opinion I value highly) won't even look at my fakes because they don't care for that type of artwork, even though that's not something I can even take personally, they wouldn't like other fakers works either. Oh well, to each their own. But yeah, it is important to be kind in how you explain that you don't care for a given thing to it's creator, because words can still hurt even when they aren't meant to - and you don't need a writer (or other type of artist) doing what I did in abandoning my art for years because I got my feelings hurt when I got feedback implying that I must be mentally or morally depraved to do fakes in the first place. Fakers are probably "wracked over the coals" harsher than what most other types of artists hopefully are because those who hate fakes (and it seems to be a popular type of artwork to look down on) usually tend to be very vocal about what a "depraved" or "sick" type of artwork it is and say the sort of comments they'd hopefully never dream of saying to a fanfic writer or someone else doing what they'd consider to be "real" art.

[Distracted]

Thanks for your input and your trust in us, Marchale. I'm very sorry to hear about everything you've been through.

[WarpGirl]

I have to laugh because my sister is constantly telling me fanfic isn't real writing constantly. She's always telling me "Work on your real book."

[marchale]

Thanks for your input and your trust in us, Marchale. I'm very sorry to hear about everything you've been through.

Well, thank you very much for saying that, but that's fine. I didn't mind quitting forums, groups, etc where faking was viewed in a hostile way (it's not like I felt comfortable around places like that anyway, so it was no great loss as far as I was concerned) and while it does hurt that my sister and some other friends will never visit my website and don't want to hear about it, thats fine too - I've met some fantastic folks here who do like it and made me feel more than welcome here (I love it here!) and even if it is a disappointment and hurts a bit, I'm cool with it if someone doesn't like it, they're interested in some things I haven't the slightest bit of interest in too, so to each their own. I wish it could be different, but then again - my sister probably wishes I was into stuff that matters alot to her too.

Edited - I should've mentioned before that I thought it was really dumb of me to have stayed away from it for so long just because I didn't have a receptive audience then like I do now; but at the time I foolishly thought, fine - I'll just forget about it. I wish now I hadn't done that, but as a very inexperienced faker years ago, I shouldn't have let harsh criticism of it stop me like it did then.

[marchale]

I have to laugh because my sister is constantly telling me fanfic isn't real writing constantly. She's always telling me "Work on your real book."

Yeah, don't you hate it when something you love to do isn't taken seriously by loved ones?

[WarpGirl]

Not really. I mean they love me and just because it's not their cup of tea doesn't change that. I used to get annoyed, but I've accepted it. The problem is she thinks I'm talented enough to get published. And she really wants that. So I don't get mad anymore.

[marchale]

Not really. I mean they love me and just because it's not their cup of tea doesn't change that. I used to get annoyed, but I've accepted it. The problem is she thinks I'm talented enough to get published. And she really wants that. So I don't get mad anymore.

Well, I'm sure she probably meant well by saying that, not realizing that writing you do for the love of it isn't keeping you from doing writing you may/may not wish to pursue in a publishing context. Glad you can accept it though. My sister never was after me to try to pursue artwork professionally - although she did thank me for 'fixing' a wedding picture of hers where she wanted her dog Biscuit from one picture to be put in a different picture instead. (He just refused to sit still for a nice portrait shot with both her and Tim in their wedding clothes, so I had to add him in this one picture he wasn't in originally ).

[marchale]

You know, it just dawned on me (better late than never, I guess!) how hypocritical or bizzare that probably sounds saying that my sister (who doesn't like fakes at all) asked me to add her dog to one of her wedding photos. I should've explained that. Laurie doesn't have a problem with image manipulation itself, providing the person involved has given you permission to do it - what she doesn't like about my (or any other fakers) artwork is that faking involves "stealing" backgrounds and headshots I wasn't given permission to use. But like I told her, I can't exactly obtain a ficticious Star Trek character's permission (and I know neither Paramount nor the actors who's faces I use would give me permission either) and I know the folks who's bodies I use wouldn't approve of it either; but it's just the fact that I'm dealing with "stolen property" there that she finds objectionable. Likewise I had a new friend explain to me recently that the reason she doesn't like fakes is because they're not the actor's real bodies. Well, sorry hon, but it's not like I can ask the actors to pose for these kind of pictures in reality; I'm just creating a fantasy or an illusion here, its not meant to be real. Anyway, at least my sister and friends who don't like fakes are nice about it.

What's tough to deal with are the folks who think fakers are mentally or morally depraved to be creating this type of artwork. I don't understand how those folks (the ones who get mean and nasty in their objections) think it's perfectly fine to play with Trip and T'Pol, etc in fanfic stories, other artwork and music videos but not okay to play with photos. What have they got against photography in terms of fan created artwork? I don't get why this should be considered the bastard child or black sheep of the family in the opinion of so many fans who enjoy other types of fan arts like fanfic, music videos, etc. Well, whatever! But as the daughter of a very serious amature photographer who's biggest joy in life was taking pictures, I guess I share my dad's passion for photography in a offbeat sort of way here, but back when I was young, I was playing around with cutting people out of photos to use them in trick photography shots, so I guess some things never change there, do they? I just wish more fans were into creating fakes and that it wasn't held in disrespect by alot of folks. I think that might be what stops alot of fans from getting into it, and that's a damn shame because it's really a blast playing around with our beloved characters this way too,

[Kotik]

marchale, there's a bit of a minefield, you're stumbling into. When we go to play with Trip/T'Pol in fanfiction, we're dealing with persons that are not real. When you're copy/pasting Trip's head out of a screencap, you're actually tinkering with the likeliness of Connor Trineer, who just happened to play the role of Trip for a time. So you're dealing with a very real person and he can well be offended, if you drop his face onto a half-naked body. That's two things that you cannot compare. Using Trip/T'Pol for fanfiction would be - interpreted in the most pedantic way - at worst a copyright offense, while using someones likeliness in shopped photos is an intrusion into privacy.

In germany, producing fakes could net you 1 year in jail because of §251a of the criminal offense law for something called Verletzung des höchstpersönlichen Lebensbereichs durch Bildaufnahmen (Violation of intimate privacy by way of image recording), so I think it is really a rather tricky line you're skirting with producing fakes.