Question about interaction within the community

[Kotik]

My latest disagreement with our dear WG left me scratching my head. I've only been here for 2 years now, but most people know by now that my opinions at times are - lets say - not exactly edited by a political correctness officer. Well after I've been called rude, nasty, whatever, I've done some historical research (well I just punched the 'search' function a couple times and read some threads ). Anyways, the result of that is, that I am genuinely puzzled by how to deal with criticism.

Most of the regulars know my pathological hate for she-pushes-him-away-then-he-pushes-her-away angst - at least in post season 4 stories, so I tend to get vocal on those, especially if it drags on through double-digit numbers of chapters. While I can understand the criticism that people say I offend the author by calling it 'ridiculous' or even a stronger selection of words, shouldn't I be then offended if people call my work 'creepy' or declare that they've 'given up on it'?

Funny thing is - I am not offended. Most of my stories are rather fluffy, so the well-established angstmeisters will not even read them and I know that, when I hit the 'submit' button. What it boils down to, for me, is that if I choose to publish something, I should be ready for negative comments, especially if I touch topics that are not universally seen in all parts of the world.

Let me give an example: There is one story in our archive (story and author shallt not be disclosed), which I regard to be the worst story ever written (in my personal opinion). I left a comment for this story and, while definitely not very flattering, I think I wrote it without being downright abusive. It was published before my time on here and I soon found out that the author is one of the 'legends' around here, so I started to dig into the ancient threads and found out that even other authors, which I hold in high regards (read: legends) started to call the plotline ridiculous and character portraits 'downright dumb' when the author had dragged out the mutually-abusive TnT-angst for 21 chapters too long.

So this lead me to some serious questions:

1. Why was directly criticizing an author acceptable in 2007 and not acceptable in 2011?
2. How to best deal with a story that on one hand is technically brilliantly written but on the other hand contains plot-elements that can be downright offensive (rape, abuse, violence). Should one just shut up or what is an acceptable form of criticism?
3. Is it forbidden to call something 'downright bad' if one thinks it is?

One of the most common lectures I get is, that 'the author put in a lot of effort'. While that may be true, but so did the workers at the Sachsenring car factory, but the result was still the worlds worst car ever.

That's why I'd really be grateful for some hints. On one side, I don't want to comment a bad plot with faux praise, just to not offend the author - on the other hand, I just as well dont want to offend everybody again and again

[WarpGirl]

It's actually quite simple... It is perfectly acceptable to leave valid constructive criticism to an author. The problem is this... saying "This story was (enter some profane word) and I wanted to get drunk because it depressed me" is never valid constructive criticism.

All such vitrolic comments do is tear down a person, it doesn't help them write better. It doesn't give any encouragement to keep on writing or improve themselves. It doesn't reflect on the story itself, it only reflects the reviewers emotional state.

Profanity in a comment is never acceptable. It does nothing to add to a review.

If you truly didn't like a story then by all means say so. Explain why you didn't care for it. I'll give you an example of how to write a scathing review, it's one of my own...

Submitted by Jeedai (not verified) on February 17, 2007 - 9:00am.


At first glance this chapter looks interesting enough. For example having Canderous musing about his past and the Mandalorians is a nice touch, even if it seem a bit of a white-wash of his clan. The remainder is a bit more doubtful
(I'll get to that). I can see that you seem to be trying to create some common ground between, and I don't quite think it works.

The chapter flows well enough and is fairly easy to read. However, I couldn't help but notice this:

Even if in Mandalorian years he was only five years older that Carth, it was still a huge age gap.

The minimum age for Canderous in Kotor is 53 Mandalorian years. So he would be a minimum of 15 years older than Carth. Since Canderous is canonically 63 Mandalorian years in kotor2, it seem likely that he would actually be around 58 Mandalorian years in Kotor and thus about 20 years Carth's senior.

Like I said earlier, I do think that there are some serious issues with this chapter (I'll try to keep it brief, but explanations has a way of resulting in long posts). Basically, what you attempt doesn't work because they are both highly out of character (OOC) here. For these two to get to the point where they would even consider confiding in one another would take a lot of careful characterization, none of which is evident in your story. The very brief exchange in an earlier chapter is nowhere near enough for them reach this point.

In a sort of order:

Canderous already did his musings about his past in-game (all the stuff up to and including Jaqi). Having him do so again, I think is not only contrived but also out of character. It would have worked before Canderous knew the pc was Revan, but not after, as he has his purpose, and meaning in life (following Revan).

Canderous' musings about the Clans being unethical doesn't really make any sense given his comments in the game. I think you are trying for an inner soft core in Canderous, but his comments and manners in the game make that interpretation unfounded and even contradicted by the game.

Canderous never shows the slightest interest in what any non-Mandalorian thinks,
so having him confide his inner thoughts in someone he doesn't trust or respect, like Bastila, (or any Jedi, possibly not even Revan) doesn't work and is also highly OOC for him.

Having him muse about Bastila's fiery spirit doesn't work either, as he judges people on what they think or believe (as is evident from his comments to Juhani, Bastila, Carth, and about the Jedi), not their fighting skills. Likewise it is OOC for him to think of Bastila, or any Jedi, except Revan, as a warrior. Their pacifism means he won't see them as such. Revan he can respect because Revan disobeyed the Jedi and the Jedi tenets, and cannot be considered a pacifist.

I noticed that you use some tired old ideas; that Canderous somehow have an issue with Xor, the raiders on Dantooine, and the Mandalorians on Kashyyyk,
that Bastila and Canderous argued a lot, and the Bastila is, for some reason, lonely after the Star Forge. While some of them may even be semi-fanon, they are all wrong.

Given Canderous own comments about taking them while they are young, there is nothing in the game to indicate that he despise Xor.

Canderous' only issue with the raiders on Dantooine is that they don't attack a worthy target (the Jedi). He is unconcerned that they raid and kill the farmers, since it is up to the farmers to protect themselves.

On Kashyyyk, his issue is that he recognise them as deserters from battle. He never says or do anything to suggest that he find attacking unarmed opponents a problem.

Consequently, having him think so is either unsupported by the game or contradicting it, and therefore OOC.

In a similar vein, in their banters both Carth and Bastila explicitly tell Canderous that they won't talk to him anymore about these things. So suggesting that Bastila and Canderous would continue to argue after that is nonsense, especially considering that Bastila acknowledges to the player that she has difficulties controlling herself. She is not going to find anything Canderous say stimulating, as his beliefs does not differ very much from those of the Sith. She would not seek out Canderous and it is highly doubtful he would bother seeking her out, since he doesn't respect her beliefs and by extension her.

Finally, the strange notion that Bastila would somehow be lonely and uncared for after her fall and redemption is completely ridiculous. She is surrounded by friends such as Juhani, Jolee, Carth and Revan. Besides them, there is the Order, several of which expresses concern for her in the game. Suggesting that Bastila should be lonely while surrounded by potential friends is nonsense and extremely contrived. She has plenty of people to turn to, people who care for her. She would never have any reason to consider confiding in Canderous.

There are other issues with the characterization of Bastila. As Canderous doesn't actually change the slightest in a better direction by the end of the game, she is going to have no sympathy or interest in seeking him out, regardless of what he feels. Having her suddenly be intrigued because he feels some regret and having her then seeking him out, asking him what is wrong, is contrived (and OOC).

The game makes it clear - with her comments and banters - what she thinks of things that Canderous approves of, so Bastila suddenly showing interest in or respect for the culture leading to those values isn't realistic.

Their banter, and their talk on Taris, also makes it clear what she think of him, and she does consider him like Xor, the raiders of Dantooine and Kashyyyk. His lack of change means that she has no reason to change her opinion of him.

The final scene with the loyalty is kind of nice, but it fails like the rest for them being OOC. She has no reason to know about or care about Mandalorian culture and customs, and certainly not perform anything with Canderous.

Sorry for the length. While I can see that you tried to create some common ground, it failed because of massive OOC. Just try to rename the two characters in this piece, and they become unrecognizable as anyone from the game. That is not good characterization.

That man hated hated my work. Hated it. And he wasn't a very nice person. But at least he knew how to show some courtesy when commenting on something he didn't like. He was objective, he proved his points. Most importantly he didn't mention suicide, drunkeness, nor did he curse like a sailor to make his point. Authors deserve some dignity and respect. Whether a reader likes their work or hates it.

It has nothing to do with being "politically correct" it has EVERYTHING to do with common courtesy and respect for people.

[Silverbullet]

Kotik, you are not the only one to catch Hell on occasion. I have found i it is best to apologize, promise never d it again and stick to that promise. We do or say things tha tothers take offense to. In the interest of pece, extend the olive branch.

The worst criticism is that no one reads one's stories or coments on them. Gives one a lonely feeling.

You are a great guy on this board. I like you and yor wit.

SB

[panyasan]

Kotik, I don't like angst-for-angst-stories either. I made objections against that sort of stories (and other kinds) which sometimes ended up in a discussion.
Also, sometimes a story just hit an emotional snare and my comments reflects that.

What I learned is this: take a break when a story gets to you. If you still want to comment, try to make your case by arguments. For example, in one story Trip and T'Pol are grieving and T'Pol is so overwhelmeld with emotions she pushes him away. Trip says he still loves T'Pol deeply, but is spending all this time with an woman who is absolutely perfect. I really disliked that story deeply and tried to express my dislike by pointing out in that a. the other woman was too perfect. b. in real life most affairs started this way: guy is disappointed/hurt by wife/girlfriend, finds another woman who listen to him etc. c. if Trip loves T'Pol so much, why doesn't he fight for her and is spending all his time with another woman.

If you want to reflect your emotions in the comments, use polite words (for example I really dislike it, I am not a fan of angst for angst) and don't use profanity.

Bottem line: feel always free to express your opinions, but stay polite and focussed on the story.

[Asso]

I know: what I am going to say won't be appreciated by most people. But it is my opinion, and I want to express it.

Literary critique - the 'serious' critique- is full, all along - of vitriolic 'criticism', and I think it is absolutely right.
From critique - from the fierce critique - it springs the best.
The definition of 'constructive criticism' is meaningless to me.
For me, it is nothing else than a good way - politically correct (I hope you may feel the sarcasm) - to avoid harsh debates.
But harsh debates, are salt, pepper, oil and vinegar of true critique.
I do not agree on repressing the criticism, regardless of how it is, on part of anyone.
And absolutely I don't agree that a story, only because it is well written, must necessarily be a story of value.
If it's ugly, is ugly.
There is no escape.

[Kotik]

Thanks for all the usefull hints. It seems I really have to work on my language skills. Basically I have to work on my style in two languages. In my native tongue, German, I speak a very thick Berlin accent which sounds rather rude, although it isn't, it's just very 'robust', but that sort of reflects back to my speaking english

There are some cases where I just can't control myself. Just these days I read a series of stories written by a foreign author on ff.net, wich have a character, I absolutely like, but at the same time, both stories are full of rape and forced-intercourse fantasies, it's absolutely disturbing That's the sort of stories that I don't know how to cope with. Maybe I'm just too emotional, which I'm probably not even supposed to be as an orderly German

[WarpGirl]

It doesn't matter how ugly a story may be, using profanity is always wrong in a comment. And profanity can be controled no matter what your native language is. Insulting an author, is not the same thing as critiquing a story. Telling an author that their story makes you sick, is not constructive criticism.

Criticizing a story is acutally a good thing for an author but ONLY if that criticism is about the story itself. NOT the writer, or the person reading the story.

Is kindness too much to ask? Really, I'm serious. Is it so important for someone to have the right to "speak their mind" that demeaning and demoralizing authors simply because they wrote something YOU don't like?

I'm sorry but nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to read 18 chapters of something you hate. It doesn't give anyone the right to be vicious and cruel. It certainly doesn't give anyone the right to say "I don't like being politically correct," "This is the way I talk," or "The story was too terrible I can't control myself."

[Distracted]

Asso, constructive criticism does exist and it is vital, but there is always the option of refraining from comment if you can't do it without profanity or ad hominem attacks. Comments should build up when possible and at least be politely constructive when you can't find anything positive to say. In my opinion, if you can neither compliment the author or think of suggestions as to how the author might improve his/her work then you shouldn't comment at all.

"This is a piece of cr** and you're an idiot for writing it" is not a comment, it's a personal attack. Something like "I can see the work you've put into this, but I find it out of character/unpleasant due to its subject matter/difficult to understand...etc and therefore I didn't like it. It's well-constructed, though, and I'd be open to reading more of your work on a different subject" is a valid comment. Both could apply to the same story. The second is potentially constructive, or at least polite. The first is not.

And since most stories here and on ff.net have warning tags, another option is just not to read the ones that contain plot elements that you know will offend you.

[panyasan]

I totally agree with you on the rape and forced intercourse part (little edit: for me forced intercourse is the same as rape) Kotik, and I don't care how much well written they are, I find them highly distrubing. So (mostly) I stop reading such kind of stories. It's much better for my peace of mind.

[WarpGirl]

I find most of them disturbing too. But that is NEVER a reason to attack an author. NEVER. Ranting raving comments saying a story is c*** or s***, calling an author anything defamatory is wrong. There is never a reason to do it.

[Asso]

It doesn't matter how ugly a story may be, using profanity is always wrong in a comment. And profanity can be controled no matter what your native language is. Insulting an author, is not the same thing as critiquing a story. Telling an author that their story makes you sick, is not constructive criticism.

It would not be a bad idea trying to pay a bit of attention to what others say.

Asso, constructive criticism does exist and it is vital, but there is always the option of refraining from comment if you can't do it without profanity or ad hominem attacks. Comments should build up when possible and at least be politely constructive when you can't find anything positive to say. In my opinion, if you can neither compliment the author or think of suggestions as to how the author might improve his/her work then you shouldn't comment at all.

Distracted, I am totally in disagreement with you, this time.
Certainly, insults are insults. But They Can Be deserved.
And they are usefull, sometimes.
Trying to be polite at all costs is often just hypocrisy.
And considering that I believe to be basically polite, I think I can do this statement.

[Kotik]

That's the issue I'm getting at. If someone marks a story/chapter with the keyword 'rape' or 'character abuse' or any other warning, I turn away, don't touch it with a pole. But I do consider it a rather unfair thing to not write anything. The author draws you in with a brilliant character and suddenly after more than 10 chapters, out of left field without warning, this character is abused in the most disgusting way imaginable. Sorry, but in that case i WILL tell the author, how sick that made me feel. As I said, if I'm going to write such things, it is my responsibility to warn the readers. You can't write a 'domestic' story and suddenly have one of the characters raped.

[WarpGirl]

OMG you guys just do not get it. You don't have the right to insult people just because they write something you hate. You don't period.

[Kotik]

OMG you guys just do not get it. You don't have the right to insult people just because they write something you hate. You don't period.

Ok, let me rephrase that dear. Do I have the right to write a strongly-worded comment to a story that contains rape and is pubilshed as PG-13 with no prior indication that such (more than potentially offensive) contents are present?

[Asso]

OMG you guys just do not get it. You don't have the right to insult people just because they write something you hate. You don't period.

Why not?