Avatar *Here there be spoilers*

[CX]

It's all there and pretty easy to see if you have an eye for it. And it "just being a movie" isn't really a defense. Movies often have messages, and any movie can be analyzed. As for the script, it seems to me there actually was a note in there comparing the space marines to NRA members. As for racism in casting, definitely when it came to the bad guys - they had to be white because that was part of the agenda the movie had. The hero didn't necessarily have to be, but the trope still would have been the same - it just fits better because he actually is white. As for Jake being better at being a Native than the Natives, again, you have to look at everything he did in just a short amount of time, and then went on to excel at all the things that all of the Natives had built up over their lifetimes. He matched them, then he exceeded them, most obviously when it came to catching that flying beast, which if you really wanted to go film nerd could very well represent white man taming the wild.

[WarpGirl]

Okay 1st of all, I'd understand why you'd be so upset about the "white man" IF the story's plot hinged on the fact that Jake, Quaritch, Selfridge, HAD TO BE WHITE in order for the story to make sense.

I've heard this movie being compared to "Dances With Wolves" so many times and I think people forget, the whole POINT of that movie is that Kevin Costner's character needed to be white for the story to work.

That's not the case with AVATAR. The only requirement for the Hero, and the Villians is that they be HUMAN. Like I said they had many, many actors read for Jake, did tests with guys of many races. Sam Worthington won the role because he gave it what they were looking for. The fact that he was white had nothing to do with it. 90% of the movie he's a computer generated image of a BLUE guy 10ft tall, with cat ears, a tail, and fangs, and little glowing dots. The fact he was sexy being blue didn't hurt.

As for the villians they weren't cast because they were white. They were cast because they were right for the parts!

Let me ask you this how many of the Na'vi were played by African Americans? How many were played by Asain actors? How many were white? If you can answer that, and remember *every single Na'Vi had a HUMAN counterpart* then you can complain about race representation in this film.

Usually when tv or movie people start casting a part they make little notes in the script, Wanted: African-American female late 20's or Wanted: Hispanic male early 40's... There is absolutely no evidence that it was a requirement that the hero and the villians in this move had to be white. So I can't buy the fact that they happen to be so is a blatent statement of this film being nothing more than "white guilt."

[Cogito]

Yes it's a trite, cliched plot, but I don't understand why that offends you, CX. It's just a mediocre film with a recycled plot that uses some fancy special effects.

[CX]

I already stated what offended me, so if you can't understand I guess there isn't any further explaining it. :shrug: I'm offended by portrayal of the military and of Native Americans in the movie. I'm not like hugely offended because it's just a crappy, simplistic movie and all, but it's still kind of offended. But that's not why I'm criticizing this movie, that's simply one of the things I'm criticizing it. I'm criticizing it because it's a simplistic, manipulative, bad movie.

As for the bad guys needing to be white, strictly speaking they wouldn't have had to have been for the story to make sense, but you're simply not acknowledging the axe that this movie had to grind - the bad guys had to be white because the movie wanted to use that as an anvil it could drop, over and over again.

When it came to casting the Na'vi, race wasn't as important because we can't actually see the actors portraying them, but they still did use a lot of black and Native actors because those are the people being represented by the Na've, which while Plinkett gets "Naive" from giving it the V'Ger treatment, I get "Native" by just sticking the t and i in where the apostrophe is. Kind of shows you hoe uncreative Cameron was with the name, huh? Then again, he also actually called the story's unobtanium by the trope name, so it's not like there's much creativity in this movie to begin with.

[WarpGirl]

Is the plot simple? Yes! I agree it is simple, so is Romeo and Juliet. Has it been done before? Of course! Every single plot that has been thought up has been done thousands of times long before you or I was born. Guess what... Nobody now living will ever come up with a completely unique plot with totally original characters, ever again because it has all been done. It was all done thousands of years ago. The only thing that changes is technology and morals. People are basically the same.

I absolutely acknowledge the movie had an axe to grind! Conserve the enviornment, when you take something out give something back, greed is bad, killing for profit is bad, you can't just barge into sombody's home had destroy it getting what you want.

It's a huge honkin' axe!

What I'm objecting too is your assertion they cast white actors for the roles to further drive the point home. They did not do that, and you can't prove they did. The only actor who was a shoe in was Ms. Weaver. Hello how many movies did she make with Mr. Cameron?

You object to the way it portrayed Native Americans... The character who was a Native American was beautiful, strong, woman. The Na'vi are not Native Americans, nor are they African, or Polynesian, or any other human tribe of human beings. They're a fictional composition of different elements of those tribes, blended into a culture. Same as the Vulcans, Klingons, and Cardassians. Come to think of it none of those is and "original culture" either. GR ripped off PLENTY.

So the bottom line is, if you think the movie is an oversimplistic piece of crap. That's just fine. It is oversimplistic. I don't sit 4 hrs in a movie theater for Algerbra. You're totally correct that it's been done before. You're totally correct that the movie has a deliberate message. You're totally correct that the movie doesn't try to hide anything about what it is. And I admire your conviction, and respect your right to believe what you choose.

But I just had to point out that when you stated there were no Native American characters that it wasn't true. And the fact that the main characters weren't chosen on the basis of their race.

[CX]

I absolutely acknowledge the movie had an axe to grind! Conserve the enviornment, when you take something out give something back, greed is bad, killing for profit is bad, you can't just barge into sombody's home had destroy it getting what you want.

Mostly it was about how white people are mostly bad, the military is bad and made up only of racists and murderers, corporations are bad, and how we should give up technology and life the idyllic native cultures, because then we'll be so much more in tune with nature and won't kill our planet.

What I'm objecting too is your assertion they cast white actors for the roles to further drive the point home. They did not do that, and you can't prove they did.

I can prove it insofar as how it works in the story and how it was used in the movie. Point proven.

The Na'vi are not Native Americans, nor are they African, or Polynesian, or any other human tribe of human beings. They're a fictional composition of different elements of those tribes, blended into a culture.

Except that they're a really obvious stand-in for Native Americans and other Aboriginal people. You know, victims of white colonialism. They're also warped into a kind of hippie version of the noble savage, which is seen by the people who believe in that kind of thing as being perfect. In fact, in this movie they were way too perfect. So yes, as a Lakota and someone who is well aware of history, I am slightly offended by that portrayal of some white guy's fap material.

But I just had to point out that when you stated there were no Native American characters that it wasn't true.

And you found one token character and it didn't even play into her character at all. As far as the movie got across, she was just Hispanic. Otherwise, the lack of human NA characters was rather telling as to the racist anvil that was being dropped, because they couldn't have something that would complicate any aspect of the movie by having someone there who was getting pissed off at all the times the word "savage" was being dropped, or someone who was NA but either didn't care for whatever reason was just like all the other racist assholes. That second one they especially couldn't have, because the movie was idolizing Native culture so much.

And the fact that the main characters weren't chosen on the basis of their race.

And I have to point out that this was an important aspect of the movie's agenda.

Now I don't hate this movie, but I do think it's stupid and racist, and I do feel rather strongly about that, so that's why I argue those points when they're brought up, the same as any other movie I'm critical of. I also don't hate on people for liking it either. Hell, my Mom eats stuff like this right up, and she's more Lakota than I am. Of course she's also somewhat racist against white people, so this movie played right into that for her.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Jon Landau Says Avatar 2 Is Four Years Away

[WarpGirl]

Nooooooooooooooooooo! Crap, shoot, NOT FAIR!