Avatar *Here there be spoilers*

[Silverbullet]

WG, there has been some progress made in the last 70 years that I know of. Today people are "disabled" years ago they were "Crippled" That name was not liked at all by those who were in that condition. Disabled is a bit more palatable.

Years ago people who were crippled often were mocked, cruel tricks played on them. Not a nice era.

Be gald you don't have to put up with that.

SB

[CX]

I also can't help but notice the complete lack of any actual human Native American characters at all in this film, whether as the hippie scientist types or as the space marines or as the corporate fat cat type.

Okay as I can't get into a political arguement about the movie's message, because that's your personal business. I will ask one thing... Why is the lack of Native American characters relevent to this movie's worth?"

It's part of how the movie was manipulative. They couldn't have any NA characters because they either would have been one of the bad guys, and thus the movie wouldn't have been completely worshiping a white man's ideal vision, or there would have been someone there to slap some people around every time one of them uttered the word "savage" and that wouldn't have made the movie quite as anvilicious as they wanted it to be.

You really ought to watch that review, too, because it explains a lot of what's wrong with the movie and how it's manipulative.

I'm glad you got the wheelchair and all, though, it's just that as a reviewer, I really can't stand this movie because I can see right through it.

[WarpGirl]

SB I'm sorry to inform you that I do indeed have to put up with all that crap. And sometimes its worse when people treat me as a piece of glass incapable of doing anything at all. They think I should be coddled and protected for the rest of my days. It's not all that great.

CX how do you know there weren't any people of Native American people in the movie or making the movie? As far as I can tell the only reference to any ethnic differences with regards to the human cast was when Quaritch reminds people to make sure they request what type of service they want when they die. And for all anyone knows there could have been Native American actors as extras or part of the production staff.

I guess what I'm really asking is how does the "supposed omission" of one ethnic group in a movie full of a diverse human population discredit the film?

The other objection I have is this... There is not one "race" of human beings that has not tried to dominate and enslave another at some point in their history. Even certain Native American tribes would occasionally do the same thing to each other. So this is a sin of humanity not the "white man." As the Na'vi aren't human at all, and appearently don't have such things in their history, your theory confuses me.

I liked the movie, you don't no biggie.

Oh I forgot Trudy Charon's character was MAYAN, the Mayan's were a group of Native Americans so you're actually mistaken. And it says so on her Samson Heilocopter.

[CX]

Guess I didn't see any NA characters. No overt ones anyway. It doesn't "discredit" the film, it just helps to show the simplistic thought process that went into making it and how manipulative it was. As for it being a whit guilt film, look at what ethnic group makes up the majority of the characters. Who's the corporate fat cat who only cares about his bottom line? Who's the commanding officer of the space marines who's in charge of it all?

Like I said, you should really watch that Plinkett review, it really points a lot of this stuff out.

[Cogito]

That peculiar Plinkett character points out that the film uses cliche piled on cliche and is carefully and cynically designed to produce an emotional association between the audience and the cute little natives. And as far as I can see that's all true, but I don't understand why anyone would be surprised by that. There's no reason to look for ulterior motives or complex morality stories, this is an obvious formula to make a successful blockbuster film. It would be more surprising if he'd missed a trick.

[CX]

Or just made a good story that wasn't insulting or manipulative.

[Cogito]

Or just made a good story that wasn't insulting or manipulative.

No more so than any other blockbuster.

[CX]

Every once and a while one comes out, though usually it's made by Nolen. To be frank though, rather than expecting crap, it'd be better if people stopped rewarding crap so that less crap is made.

[Cogito]

Every once and a while one comes out, though usually it's made by Nolen. To be frank though, rather than expecting crap, it'd be better if people stopped rewarding crap so that less crap is made.

If a lot of people felt the same way, that would probably happen. As it is, it seems to me that most people are happy just to get a couple of hours of unchallenging entertainment. Nothing wrong with that for those that want it, although I can't say that this particular one held any interest for me.

[Asso]

That peculiar Plinkett character points out that the film uses cliche piled on cliche and is carefully and cynically designed to produce an emotional association between the audience and the cute little natives. And as far as I can see that's all true, but I don't understand why anyone would be surprised by that. There's no reason to look for ulterior motives or complex morality stories, this is an obvious formula to make a successful blockbuster film. It would be more surprising if he'd missed a trick.

Cute? It is evident that this term is purely subjective. Or, maybe, I am prone to have my own idea of ​​'cute', perhaps a little too much personal.
Well, to tell the true, I found E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial not perfectly pleasant; indeed, decidedly repugnant. Mushy, too. I never managed to see the whole movie (and you should know that I like Spielberg).

Anyway - forgive me - I am severely leery of the myth of the noble savage, which, I think, is adumbrated not in a veiled manner in 'Avatar'. It is in my opinion just that: a mith. And even more I am leery of those who use it in order to ingratiate themselves with the viewers.
But, on the other hand, I must admit: I have often the despicable tendency to root for the villain (unless this villain hurts Trip or - woe betide him! - T'Pol! ).

[CX]

Also, the Na'vi are totally furry fap material. Just had to put that out there.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

^ Well, I much prefer the natural Zoe Saldana over the blue one!

[WarpGirl]

Well... I *finally* got to watch my copy on my parents totally state-of-the-art entertainment system. And I would love one for myself! But for the record, yes Trudy Charon is definitely Mayan and the Mayans are definitely Native Americans. So there is a major character of Native American decent. There is also a major character of Indian decent. All races of humanity are represented so I don't see the insults. I really don't.

From the first major empire on Earth to this century this is the way humanity has pushed forward. I don't see what's so insulting about a movie made for the express purpose of entertaining people.

BTW Quaritch was abosolutely not a Marine, he was a coperate mercenary. As far as the claim that the film is "anti-military" I'd disagree, all you have to do is listen to Jake's inner monologue when he first arrives on Pandora. If anything I'd say the film's "political statement" is "anti-Blackwater" or other "private security" firms that contract the services of ex-military personel.

How would it have been less "manipulative" if the two main villians were something other than "white?"

Ps. The original guy to read for Jake Sully was Asian. Sam Worthington read the role better.

[CX]

So they had a token native and didn't even bother going into her heritage at all. So like I said, mostly white people.

As for insulting, I'd say it's fairly insulting to the military. And yeah, the movie tried to have it both ways by saying at a couple points that they were mercenaries, but they also mentioned just as many times that the majority of them were former military, including the protagonist himself. As Plinkett explains in his review, it's kind of insulting considering the way the military characters are portrayed as having about the same as one might expect from say, the Indian Wars in the 19th century, or colonial militaries from centuries past.

I'm also somewhat offended by the ... how do I put it ... idealistic vision of Native culture that's far more in line with something a hippie would envision than the reality. The whole bits with literally being one with nature really drove that point home. I guess actually being of Lakota decent gives me a somewhat unique perspective when it comes to the portrayal of Natives in movies, and whether it's as savages or as elves, I don't much care for either version of Hollywood Natives.

How would it have been less "manipulative" if the two main villains were something other than "white?"

Because then it wouldn't have been white people acting like racist assholes and it wouldn't have been a guilt trip to white people about the violent colonization and near genocide that none of them actually perpetrated themselves. And white people are the most socially acceptable target when it comes to portraying racism, after all. Not like it was that hard to spot as manipulative either, the way they kept having a bunch of white people shout "savage" every few words to drive that hammer home.

For me the fun part is the irony in still keeping the "mighty whitey" aspect with the Jake Sully character, who ends up being way better at being a Native than any of the Natives, despite only being one for a few weeks and having just learned the basics of their culture. That actually is kind of racist. I mean, it's not back of the bus racist, but it is "all black people are good at playing bass" racist.

[WarpGirl]

I'm sorry but I think that's a whole lot of chasing windmills. It's just a movie. Besides, Jake isn't a better Na'vi than all other Na'vi's who killed Quaritch? Hint Not Jake. I think that yes the movie has a very explicit agenda in story. So does every other piece of fiction ever created.

But I don't think there is any reason to ascribe racism in the casting. They chose the actors that gave very good preformances. Unless you can get a copy of the script where the casting notes say "hero and villians must be white" then I don't think you've made a real case at all.