The Upsetting News Thread

[WarpGirl]

I never drink without eating! Strange thing is, I can drink wine, whiskey, vodka, and schnapps. NOT AT THE SAME TIME and not have a problem at all. But give me a beer and it's like I'd been guzzling sand for days later.

[Kotik]

I never drink without eating! Strange thing is, I can drink wine, whiskey, vodka, and schnapps. NOT AT THE SAME TIME and not have a problem at all. But give me a beer and it's like I'd been guzzling sand for days later.

If you can take whiskey or Vodka, but not beer, it looks like an allergy. Hops, wheat, barley or something like that.

[WarpGirl]

Then probably hops because I can eat both wheat and barley. Ya learn something new every day!

[Transwarp]

There's not enough oxygen in here for the passengers that are already in and they tried to shoehorn some 50 more in.

Didn't I see that scene in the movie "Schindler's List?"

[Kotik]

Then probably hops because I can eat both wheat and barley. Ya learn something new every day!

Hops is part of every beer. Maybe you should check for an allergy. A single glass of whiskey amnounts to more than a bottle of beer, so if the reaction is that harsh, better have a doctor check it. Hops does not only occur in beverages.

[WarpGirl]

Well, the last drink I had was... I don't even remember not in months. But on my next physical I'll ask. Thanks. Now put me out of my misery dearie. I'm dying of suspense and it's almost time for me to go lay down.

[Kotik]

Well, the last drink I had was... I don't even remember not in months. But on my next physical I'll ask. Thanks. Now put me out of my misery dearie. I'm dying of suspense and it's almost time for me to go lay down.

Dear lassie, lay down. It's 4am over here, so I'm overdue for laying down myself. I'll write tomorrow. What I've readso far of your PM does not warrant a flame I'm off to bed

[WarpGirl]

Holy cow! Me go to bed YOU go to bed!

[Distracted]

Sorry, Kotik, but you're wrong about beer having insufficient alcohol to be addicting. One 12 oz American beer has the same amount of alcohol as a shot of hard liquor, and some European beers are higher proof. You're still pickling your liver, friend. I'd recommend you see a doctor that knows what he/she is talking about and not get your info about alcoholism from your bartender, because you've been seriously misinformed.

[Cogito]

not get your info about alcoholism from your bartender, because you've been seriously misinformed.

It's a serious issue (that I know nothing about) but I had to chuckle at that line.

[WarpGirl]

Some of the very bad things that are true do make us laugh for some reason. It's a chemical thing. Anyway, Kotik does his own thing, leaving the rest of us...

[Kotik]

Sorry, Kotik, but you're wrong about beer having insufficient alcohol to be addicting. One 12 oz American beer has the same amount of alcohol as a shot of hard liquor, and some European beers are higher proof. You're still pickling your liver, friend. I'd recommend you see a doctor that knows what he/she is talking about and not get your info about alcoholism from your bartender, because you've been seriously misinformed.

Erm, I didn't get this info from a bartender First of all you have to distinguish between alcoholism and alcoholism. There is the "hardcore" variant (called "alcohol sickness" in German), which is when your body is dependent on ethanol in the system, comparable to drug addictions. An alcohol-sick person cannot function in a sober state.

The second variant is the psychological "addiction", like being used to drink after work or something like that. You can actually function just fine without drinking any alcohol and your body does not show any ill-effects. However the wish to get a beer (or something harder) gets very strong. It can be compared to a smoker, who suddenly quits. The body will not suffer much, but it takes a lot of will-power not to start again.

A case of alcohol-sickness is almost impossible to aquire if you only drink beer, because you'd have to take in insane amounts of it. Your theory that a pint has about the same alc-content as a shot of licquor might be true, but to ingest it, you'll have to drink a shot for the licquor and a whole pint for the beer. However, in the case of beer not all alcohol will ever make it into the blood stream, as any beer drinker will confirm - you have to take a leak quite frequently, so a good portion of the already low ethanol content is flushed out again.
The average European lager has 4.5-5 vol% alcohol, which is very low and you'd have to drink a whole crate or more to reach the amount of alcohol, that a hard-stuff drinker ingests in a "normal session". That's not even counting the fact that

a) you'd need like 8-10 hours to drink a whole crate of beer
b) you'd end up vomitting way before ever coming to the last bottle.

So, yes, in theory, you can become addicted, but you'd have to pull crazier stunts than I did in my worst of times. During my worst ever binge I managed 16 bottles, puked the raw stuffing out of myself for hours and was sick for days, so I cannot imagine how someone would manage 20 bottles - that's 10 litres, with about 500ml of ethanol. Even if all of that would make it into your system, it'd still be less than some of the Vodka I've seen. So in theory, yes, practically, no. If you go for Bock-beers or Alt-beers, which come at 10+ vol%, that's a whole different game, but I never touch that stuff. Neither do I drink wine or hard licquor.

That's not to say that I promote drinking and I surely know that even with the moderate amounts of beer I drink these days (3-4 bottles a day, about 3 days per week) I'm still putting a strain on my liver, but it's certainly different and less dangerous than chucking a bottle of whiskey on a regular basis.

[Silverbullet]

Koti, we used to define the difference as an alki and a drunk. An alki needed it and a drunk liked it but didn't need it.

I know that in Denmark there two strong beers Elephant Beer and Giraffe beer. Alchohol content was about 12 perent. that is pretty stong. The floor would rach up and slap you in the face after a couple of those.

One time I could have bathed in Beer. Loved it. Didn't need it. Wife got pissed at me when I switched to larger bottles so I didn't hve to walk to the fridge so often. She hollerd about having to lug those large bottles home. Made me quit.

Skol

SB

[Distracted]

Erm, I didn't get this info from a bartender First of all you have to distinguish between alcoholism and alcoholism. There is the "hardcore" variant (called "alcohol sickness" in German), which is when your body is dependent on ethanol in the system, comparable to drug addictions. An alcohol-sick person cannot function in a sober state.

The second variant is the psychological "addiction", like being used to drink after work or something like that. You can actually function just fine without drinking any alcohol and your body does not show any ill-effects. However the wish to get a beer (or something harder) gets very strong. It can be compared to a smoker, who suddenly quits. The body will not suffer much, but it takes a lot of will-power not to start again.

A case of alcohol-sickness is almost impossible to aquire if you only drink beer, because you'd have to take in insane amounts of it. Your theory that a pint has about the same alc-content as a shot of licquor might be true, but to ingest it, you'll have to drink a shot for the licquor and a whole pint for the beer. However, in the case of beer not all alcohol will ever make it into the blood stream, as any beer drinker will confirm - you have to take a leak quite frequently, so a good portion of the already low ethanol content is flushed out again.
The average European lager has 4.5-5 vol% alcohol, which is very low and you'd have to drink a whole crate or more to reach the amount of alcohol, that a hard-stuff drinker ingests in a "normal session". That's not even counting the fact that

a) you'd need like 8-10 hours to drink a whole crate of beer
b) you'd end up vomitting way before ever coming to the last bottle.

So, yes, in theory, you can become addicted, but you'd have to pull crazier stunts than I did in my worst of times. During my worst ever binge I managed 16 bottles, puked the raw stuffing out of myself for hours and was sick for days, so I cannot imagine how someone would manage 20 bottles - that's 10 litres, with about 500ml of ethanol. Even if all of that would make it into your system, it'd still be less than some of the Vodka I've seen. So in theory, yes, practically, no. If you go for Bock-beers or Alt-beers, which come at 10+ vol%, that's a whole different game, but I never touch that stuff. Neither do I drink wine or hard licquor.

That's not to say that I promote drinking and I surely know that even with the moderate amounts of beer I drink these days (3-4 bottles a day, about 3 days per week) I'm still putting a strain on my liver, but it's certainly different and less dangerous than chucking a bottle of whiskey on a regular basis.

You obviously sincerely believe in what you're saying, Kotik, and I certainly agree that it's virtually impossible for a chronic heavy drinker who's got a high tolerance for the effects of alcohol to get acute alcohol poisoning and die at a single sitting from beer like he/she can with hard liquor, but acute alcohol poisoning and alcoholism are two completely different animals. Many people who die of acute alcohol poisoning are not by definition alcoholics. They are just binge drinkers who didn't understand the toxic effects of alcohol at high doses until it was too late. Some binge drinkers are also alcoholics, and if these people stop drinking suddenly they can have hallucinations and seizures and die without proper treatment (This is called "delirium tremens" or DT's). I'm assuming that's the group you're calling "alcohol sickness". Other alcoholics don't go through full blown DT's if they quit. They often get cravings, tremors and anxiety, though, and their blood pressure often goes up. Maybe it's particular to Germany, since here in the states the medical literature doesn't make any distinction between the two. One's just farther along in the process than the other.

A person who drinks alcohol frequently, experiences negative consequences from said alcohol intake and yet denies that it's a problem, and cannot stop drinking for more than a few days, whether due to physical withdrawal symptoms or to psychological cravings...well, that person is an alcoholic. The treatment is for them to stop drinking alcohol of all kinds. Permanently. Nothing else works.

[Kotik]

You obviously sincerely believe in what you're saying, Kotik, and I certainly agree that it's virtually impossible for a chronic heavy drinker who's got a high tolerance for the effects of alcohol to get acute alcohol poisoning and die at a single sitting from beer like he/she can with hard liquor, but acute alcohol poisoning and alcoholism are two completely different animals. Many people who die of acute alcohol poisoning are not by definition alcoholics. They are just binge drinkers who didn't understand the toxic effects of alcohol at high doses until it was too late. Some binge drinkers are also alcoholics, and if these people stop drinking suddenly they can have hallucinations and seizures and die without proper treatment (This is called "delirium tremens" or DT's). I'm assuming that's the group you're calling "alcohol sickness". Other alcoholics don't go through full blown DT's if they quit. They often get cravings, tremors and anxiety, though, and their blood pressure often goes up. Maybe it's particular to Germany, since here in the states the medical literature doesn't make any distinction between the two. One's just farther along in the process than the other.

A person who drinks alcohol frequently, experiences negative consequences from said alcohol intake and yet denies that it's a problem, and cannot stop drinking for more than a few days, whether due to physical withdrawal symptoms or to psychological cravings...well, that person is an alcoholic. The treatment is for them to stop drinking alcohol of all kinds. Permanently. Nothing else works.

Dis, it's virtually impossible to get acute alcohol poisoning from beer alone. If it's brewn according to the German Reinheitsgebot (engl.: german purity law) the beer can never have more than 5.something vol%. To reach the neccessary amount of ethanol, you'd have to chuck gallons of the stuff -> not possible.
Your little theory has two major flaws. First one is me and the second one is Bavaria. I've been a beer drinker since I've been 17 (low percentage beverages like beer are allowed for people 16 or older in Germany). So after 20 years of regular beer intake, by your definition, I should be an alcoholic. Since I'm also a regular blood donor, I have a full blood profile taken at least once a year, including Leberwerte (lit.: liver values, don't know what the english term is). Last one was 2 months ago and according to the medics my liver and all the blood values are just fine. The only ever time that I experienced things like anxiety, nightmares etc. was, when I was drinking in extreme proportions (2006), when 10 to 12 litres a day was the norm. Once I returned to moderate amounts (six-pack maximum) I never ever experienced such things again and I can go days, even weeks - if need be - without any beer or any other alcoholic beverage.
Second flaw in your theory is Bavaria - one of the 15 German states. Bavaria is the only German state, where beer is classified as an "essential food" - in the same category as bread, butter and cheese. This leads to certain peculiarities, like the fact that in many factories bavarian workers are allowed up to three bottles of beer during their working hours, unless they have to drive vehicles as part of their job. They also have the highest per capita intake of beer by a mile, so according to your theory Bavaria should be full of alcoholics. Truth is, Bavaria actually has the lowest amount of alcoholics of any German state, again by a huge mile. What they also have is the lowest per capita consummation of hard licquor and alco-pops.
As I've said earlier, the real danger is not the low-percentage stuff like beer and some wines, it's the hard stuff or "beers" that have been created with chemical additives, like those hideous alco-pops or beer mixed with all sorts of shit. To suffer any ill-effects you'd have to go stark raving mad on the amount of stuff you ingest and most likely your stomach would give in way earlier than your liver. I cannot speak for american beer, since I don't drink it. I once was given a tin of Budweiser (the american variety, the original is from the czech republic) and´it tasted like utter crap, because it is chemically tinkered with.

I've invested a lot of research in this topic as we've had 2 alcohol related deaths in our family. Fact is, you won't find any alcoholic, who doesn't do booze or at least "harder stuff" like port wine. On beer alone, you'll get fat, but certainly not addicted.